# Christian Fundamentalists vs. Halloween **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226 "2002-10-28T07:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Etherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@Etherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Etherial)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/181 "2004-10-29T13:13:34Z")
Yay for guest account, hopefully I’ll be able to get a real one soon here. I live in Lincoln, Nebraska. For those of you who don’t know, it’s smack in the middle of the US, right next to Iowa, Kansas, and Colorado. One of the more conservative states. I was raised, and my family continues to be, Roman Catholic. Which means I live in the diocese of Lincoln, one of the most conservative in the US. If I remember correctly, we are one of the only two diocese that does not allow female alter-persons, better known as alterboys. Last year, around Christmas time, it may have been at the Midnight Vigil, part of the priest’s homily (after the gospel reading, when he gets up and talks to us, not just reads out of the bible) He started off by telling us that, Yes, Christmas hijacked a non-christian holiday. That the day was the same, to get the non-christians to accept the Church easier. Same thing with the trappings. He hasn’t to my knowledge given any retractions or appologies, so as far as I know, this still stands as information given by a fairly knowledgeable Catholic source. The Catholic church here does not celebrate Halloween, and tells people not to, but they impose no particular restrictions on those who do. The diocese has seen fit to blanket excomunicate (kick outta the Church) people who have done things against the Church’s will before, and they havn’t threatened anything like that, so there is some measure of acceptance here. My Aunt and Uncle, and my grandparents, some of the more conservative Catholics I know, celebrate Halloween. In my Catholic school, Halloween celebrations were expressly forbidden. Depending on what teachers you had, you were almost guaranteed to get some candy, and not have much work. Often, half my day was spent listening to and telling scary stories with half the flourescent lights turned off. Hopefully this will help someone see some kind of truth. If not, such is life. _smiles_Regardless, I hope you all have a safe and fun night on Sunday. May (insert deitific being of choice/universe in general) rain (insert said beings blessing-equivalent)'s upon you (insert family/pets/friends as needed)! ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/182 "2004-10-29T13:44:38Z")
**Etherial** , welcome to the SDMB! Take off your coat (for heaven’s sake, hang it up! Don’t put it on the floor! Do I look like your maid? 😃 ), stick around for a while. Warning, the place is addictive; like the song says, you can check out, but you can never leave! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/183 "2004-10-29T13:47:29Z")
I got red horns, tail and bow tie for my costume. I’ve actually heard a preacher state that satanists pray over kids costumes in stores to “put demons into them”. So woe to the child who buys one of those; demons attached free of charge. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/184 "2004-10-29T13:57:06Z")
> [@norinew](#): > > **Etherial** , welcome to the SDMB! Take off your coat (for heaven’s sake, hang it up! Don’t put it on the floor! Do I look like your maid? 😃 ), stick around for a while. Warning, the place is addictive; like the song says, you can check out, but you can never leave! 😉 Welcome and invitation seconded, **Etherial**!! ::: joins **norinew** in singing “Welcome to the Hotel Cecilfornia” as horrified onlookers flee in droves :::: More seriously, What about All Saints as a holy day of obligation? What is the good bishop’s stance on that? ---
**Author:** ![Etherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@Etherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Etherial)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/185 "2004-10-29T14:06:47Z")
_grins_I’ve actually been lurking for a few months now, and had about 2 posts before the site went pay. As to All Saint’s Day: It’s a Holy Day of Obligation, has been all my life, if I were a churchgoer anymore, I’d be at Church on Monday. Not going is a Mortal Sin, just like not going on Christmas or Easter. _shrugs_I was not aware that it was different anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![JMS\_CCT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbe5ce/32.png) [@JMS\_CCT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JMS_CCT)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/186 "2004-10-29T14:09:37Z")
> [@masonite](#): > > What’s that, you say?? > > _You can meet them in school, or in lanes, or at sea, > In church, or in trains, or in shops, or at tea; > For the saints of God are just folk like me, > And I mean to be one too!_ > > (All together, now, from the top: ) > > … > > I recommend everyone clicking on APB’s link above. Fascinating. H4E, it refutes the idea that Halloween is of pagan origin - but confirms the idea that it’s of Catholic origin, so I’m not sure if that makes it any better in your eyes. > > Doesn’t the verse about being unequally yoked refer to marriages, anyway? Scary implications if it refers to general associations. How can you spread the truth if you won’t associate with those who don’t yet accept it? Much of Catholicism is of pagan origin, including–but not limited to–the so-called “Christian Holydays.” When the Catholic religion became the officially mandated religion of the Roman Empire (around the 4th century AD?), Church prelates realized they weren’t going to stop the largely pagan population from practicing and celebrating their rituals so they simply “Christianized” them. The winter solstice became Christmas; Worship of the Babylonian goddess of fertility, “Ishtar”, became Easter, etc. Alexander Hislop thoroughly exposes this in his famous book, “Two Babylons.” 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 says: " **Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers…what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?..Wherefore come out from among them and be ye seperate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing…"** Although this passage could certainly be applied to marriage, some fundamentalists would say this extends to the unbelieving world. Period. Well, if Christians separate themselves from the world, i.e., have no relationships with unbelievers, how would they have a witness with them? They wouldn’t! Therefore, Paul qualifies this in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 5, where he tells them not to keep company with a brother who is a fornicator, covetous, idolater, etc., _but not to separate from worldly people who are doing the same things (1 Cor. 5:9-11)._ The broader application–within the context of the chapter, and indeed the whole counsel of Paul’s revelation–would be to religion: Separate yourselves out from religious observances, otherwise you are receiving the grace of God in vain (verse 1) We, those of us who are in Christ’s body, are saved by grace (eph. 2:8), and therefore under grace (Rom. 6:14). All things are lawful unto us, but aren’t all expedient (1 Cor. 10:23), i.e. profitable. If a Christian desires to marry an unbeliever, it isn’t unlawful, but it may be unprofitable (in the spiritual sense of the the word). If you want to exchange gifts on December 25th , or dress up in a costume and go around collecting candy with your children on October 31, and you feel okay with it, then do it. It’s not unlawful. But, by all means, don’t make it into something it isn’t–as religious institutions have done–a “holy” or religious day of observation/obligation. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/187 "2004-10-29T15:42:38Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > [hijack continued] > Hi **Vanilla** , > Sheep live outside all year long in England which has a much colder climate than Jerusalem, so that’s not an argument against Christ having been born in December. Hmmm. That’s interesting. On quickly re-reading the beginning of all 4 gospels (my Bible now sits beside my computer), there _isn’t_ a mention of lambs in Matthew’s or Luke’s description of Christ’s birth (Mark and John don’t describe it at all). I was always under the impression it was. Anyway, I was told that the dates set for Christmas deliberately coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, apparently on the theory that if people are going to be celebrating anyway, let’s give them a holy reason to do so. > [/hijack] When I kept sheepses, they could lamb anywhere from march to june, it just depended on when the ewe got covered by the ram=) And FWIW, december just before the time of christ the 10th month of the year…the calendar went through a few changes over the years… [Julian vs Gregorian](http://www.genfair.com/dates.htm) [Roman [Julian] calendar change](http://www.roman-britain.org/calendar.htm) So with several fingers in the pie, and with Augustus sticking in a month around when he wa _supposedly_ born, who knows the exact date any more. Shepherds watched their flocks, and brought them into fenced areas at night all year around. The areas in Israel are not the same as in scotland or northern europe, where the flock takes off in spring after lambing and is gone for 4 or 5 months grazing, coming back in the fall…it is more akin to todays farming style where the animals lived near the towns and were driven out in the mornings for the day [as more described in Heidi…they came back daily for milking] ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/188 "2004-10-29T20:24:23Z")
Back to the OP: There’s no question that there are things that go bump in the night, and there are people who not only seriously believe in said things but do weird\* rituals celebrating them. However, I’m not one of those people. Halloween is, as someone else said, about dressing up and getting candy. And being allowed to act a little silly and a little inappropriate (but not something as stupid as egging someone’s house, unless they’re okay with it and you clean it up afterwards). I’ve been planning to do Pink Luigi for ages, but I just can’t seem to find the right accessories… \*says the girl who eats the body and drinks the blood of her Lord! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/189 "2004-10-29T21:19:26Z")
**Yllaria** : [quoteOuthouses were alledgedly pushed back along their paths.[quote] Brilliant! Truly they were the Greatest Generation! ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/190 "2004-10-30T01:15:56Z")
> [@JMS@CCT](#): > > Much of Catholicism is of pagan origin, including–but not limited to–the so-called “Christian Holydays.” When the Catholic religion became the officially mandated religion of the Roman Empire (around the 4th century AD?), Church prelates realized they weren’t going to stop the largely pagan population from practicing and celebrating their rituals so they simply “Christianized” them. The winter solstice became Christmas; Worship of the Babylonian goddess of fertility, “Ishtar”, became Easter, etc. Alexander Hislop thoroughly exposes this in his famous book, “Two Babylons.” > > 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 says: " **Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers…what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?..Wherefore come out from among them and be ye seperate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing…"** > > Although this passage could certainly be applied to marriage, some fundamentalists would say this extends to the unbelieving world. Period. Well, if Christians separate themselves from the world, i.e., have no relationships with unbelievers, how would they have a witness with them? They wouldn’t! Therefore, Paul qualifies this in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 5, where he tells them not to keep company with a brother who is a fornicator, covetous, idolater, etc., _but not to separate from worldly people who are doing the same things (1 Cor. 5:9-11)._ The broader application–within the context of the chapter, and indeed the whole counsel of Paul’s revelation–would be to religion: Separate yourselves out from religious observances, otherwise you are receiving the grace of God in vain (verse 1) > > We, those of us who are in Christ’s body, are saved by grace (eph. 2:8), and therefore under grace (Rom. 6:14). All things are lawful unto us, but aren’t all expedient (1 Cor. 10:23), i.e. profitable. If a Christian desires to marry an unbeliever, it isn’t unlawful, but it may be unprofitable (in the spiritual sense of the the word). If you want to exchange gifts on December 25th , or dress up in a costume and go around collecting candy with your children on October 31, and you feel okay with it, then do it. It’s not unlawful. But, by all means, don’t make it into something it isn’t–as religious institutions have done–a “holy” or religious day of observation/obligation. **Diogenes** has made a more than compelling case that not observing Haloween on the basis of it’s pagan origins, while celebrating Christmas and Easter is hypocritical. So one might reasonably make the argument that if you celebrate Christmas and Easter it’s hardly a leap of faith _(pun intended)_ to go on and celebrate Haloween. Of course the inverse of that argument is that they’re **all** of pagan origin and equally offensive before God, and one shouldn’t celebrate Christmas or Easter either! I am puzzled at the notion that a person could be even one gram less hypocritical by engaging in the exact same practices as those “religious institutions” and simply say, “it isn’t a religious observation for us.” So, a Christian can participate in pagan religious observances—the same as the others—and take comfort in the spiritual sleight of hand that “we don’t mean it?” Can you see Jesus at a pagan festival with that argument? Paul said we should not participate in religious observances, and it would certainly appear to mock that counsel by essentially saying. “It’s a religious observance for this fellow standing next to me, but it’s cool because it’s not for me.” ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/191 "2004-10-30T01:41:42Z")
One of the local witch doctors in my area is going around screaming at people that they shouldn’t observe Halloween on Sunday (or at all, but that’s gotten him nowhere). So it looks like some putzes are going to take their kids around on Saturday so the invisible sky pixie won’t shoot a lightning bolt up their ass. I think I’m going to put out a sign to the effect that if you’re too much of a superstitious pansy to show up on Sunday, I’m not giving you any candy. But then I’ll probably have burning crosses outside and shit tons of teenagers showing up Sunday, and I want neither being a misanthropic recluse and a cheap bastard with candy. So I guess it’s going on the pile with my plan last year to mug anyone over twelve who showed up at my door. If you’re going to dismiss a holiday as vile witchcraft, what in the hell kind of sense does it make to then tell people how to go about celebrating it? Either start up an auto da fe, or accept that other people don’t care about your imbecilic beliefs and mutter quietly to yourself about all the things Satan will be doing to them in the lake of fire. Telling people not to do it at all might make some twisted attempt at sense, but “Not on Sunday!” is just purile. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/192 "2004-10-30T02:11:49Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I had no idea some Lutherans had a problem with a Halloween. They always seemed as one of the more level-headed protestant sects. :eek: Sorry, but when I’m not surrounded by my Calvinist neighbors, I frequently seem to be amidst folk of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Anyway, remember that Lutherans celebrate October 31st as Reformation Day, the date that Martin Luther nailed his theses up, and thus the fundamentalist Lutherans are more likely to take exception to anything that detracts from being observant on that occasion. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/193 "2004-10-30T05:43:44Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Although it is oddly appropriate to have a thread about Halloween that keeps coming back from the dead, I think I’m gonna have to close this. Old threads like this pick up too many banned posters and posters who don’t post here anymore, and it causes confusion. Now, if you’ll excuse me, one of the cats has gotten into the ventilation ducts again. I mean, it must be one of the cats, right? There’s nothing else here which would be crawling through the ductwork… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226.md?page=9)