# Christian Fundamentalists vs. Halloween **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226 "2002-10-28T07:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/101 "2003-10-07T00:27:43Z")
[http://www.religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org) \*\* [/QUOTE] That’s the same place that seems to neglect that the Cult Awareness Network was purchased by Scientology, instead claiming that it was bought by some sort of body devoted to “religious understanding”, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/102 "2003-10-07T00:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Heathen DJ \* > \*\*Two more WORTHY links, a bit more appropo of the topic… > \*\* Typical regurgitation of the same sad old 19th-century idle speculation without a hint of real evidence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Heathen_DJ)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/103 "2003-10-07T00:32:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Uh-yup, yeah, heh. The Christians FORCED THE JEWS TO MOVE PASSOVER!!! Furthermore, the Christians FORCED THE JEWS TO INVENT PASSOVER so they could FORCE it to be MOVED to the date of a pagan “goddess” that they hadn’t even heard of yet. > > I guess people prefer 19th-century trash and rubbish to real scholarship. \*\* I’m not in a position to question Dr. Murray’s research. Neither did I mean to insinuate that the Church of Rome moved Easter/Pascha, nor require the Jews to move Pesach. Just that it’s easier to assimilate people into your ways if you use their ways to do it. If you build/rebuild on their sacred sites, it saves time reorienting the crowd walking that way The Goddess aspect is hardly trifling…The Goddesses of Egypt, Greece, Rome, Assyria, etc, etc, etc, attest to that. Also, while Wicca is a MODERN religion, we draw on many pantheons and systems. Okay, admittedly, some of us to a bizarre extreme, but as I said before…those of us who have gotten past the fluff and moved toward taking our religion more seriously than “Charmed”, have our heads on our shoulders instead of between our buttocks. MP, Lou ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/104 "2003-10-07T00:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > If you do not believe that, I cannot stifle my laughjter at your small-minded fear. Huh?? And what then, shall those who have rationally arrived at the conclusion that there is no substantive evidence for a spirit world, do about your preemptive dismissal of nonbelief as “fear”? Bust a gut rolling on the floor? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Heathen_DJ)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/105 "2003-10-07T00:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Only stated by the monumentally ignorant. The Hellenistic world knew four seasons. The seasons of the Levant were certainly not that of northern Europe. > > It’s amazing how utterly ethnocentric and blinkered the view of these newfangled “pagans” can be… \*\* Absolutely. But what was known in the Mediterranean in say…1000 CE was probably not known by the farmers in England. They were, for the most part, “monumentally ignorant” of the fact that there even WAS a “rest of the world” MP, Lou ---
**Author:** ![The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Heathen_DJ)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/106 "2003-10-07T00:42:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Typical regurgitation of the same sad old 19th-century idle speculation without a hint of real evidence. \*\* Probably 20th. Around 1949. But hey…Either way, it still ain’t the way the Chick Tracts read! MP, Lou ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/107 "2003-10-07T00:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > It’s this baseless fearmongering plus fundie ignorance and hatred of anything that is not consonant with their blinkered worldview that is ruining a great holiday. \*\* Absolutely correct. I remember when I was a kid, anyone who was driven around by their parents was made fun of mercilessly. Halloween is my favorite holiday, and part of the fun was that you got to get away from your parents for awhile. It amazes me how many parents proudly proclaim they drive their kids around and they all had a great time. Id love to hear what their kids say, when their parents arent around. Parents may love their kids, but trust me, having them around all the time is not a kids idea of a ‘great time’. Hell, Halloween is a wimpy holiday now. All during the 70s, we’d do fun and crazy things like get home with our candy, take a bite out of a piece, then spew fake blood everywhere pretending like we’d bit a razor. Or have fake siezures like we’d eaten poisen candy, then break out laughing when o0ur parents wigged out. Its FUN. For around 10 years, every year we’d make a scarecrow and on halloween carve a bunch of pumpkins and douse the crap outta them with lighter fluid, set em on fire, and take turns hopping on our horses and galloping by the scarecrow, try to nail it in the head with the flaming pumpkins in imitation of the old disney headless horsemen cartoon. If I had a horse now, Id still do it today, its a blast. But nowadays, if we’d done that, youd have some idiot start a campaign to ban the headless horseman movie. Or hiding in the woods by the path everyone had to walk by, making screeching sounds when other kids came by, and see how badly we could scare them (or be scared by them). People in the neighborhood used to get into it; headless dummies with fake blood and gore hanging over the porch; you had to walk under it to get to the door to trick or treat. Or a husband would hang out in the garage that you had to walk by to get to the door, and as soon as you were in front he’d beat and bang on the door and howl like a werewolf…scared me so bad once I peed my pants but that was FUN lets do it again…but no, the house next door has something cool set up too, lets check it out… And last year, in this yuppieville of Mt View, I decide to get into it, lets give the kids a chance to have fun, show them how fun halloween can be. All rigged up, fake bloody stump over my hand, haunted house cd blaring, red lights, bloody plastic axes, and some dumb %%%^ calls the cops cause ‘I scared her child’. Well no shit lady, its HALLOWEEN!!! If any parent reading this thinks your kid is having more fun being driven around suburbia in your SUV, or even worse, walking around a damn mall, on Halloween then you are delusional fool. Let your kid be a kid for christs sake. Maybe if you joined them in it, rather than hung around to keep them from it, you might have some fun, and might even get scared a bit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/108 "2003-10-07T00:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Uh-yup, yeah, heh. The Christians FORCED THE JEWS TO MOVE PASSOVER!!! Furthermore, the Christians FORCED THE JEWS TO INVENT PASSOVER so they could FORCE it to be MOVED to the date of a pagan “goddess” that they hadn’t even heard of yet. > > I guess people prefer 19th-century trash and rubbish to real scholarship. \*\* You’re aware that Good Friday and the Jewish Passover are not the same thing, aren’t you? Nobody’s saying that anybody forced the Jews to do anything. we’re talking about what Western European _Christians_ did with Passover. > [@](#): > > **You speak of but a single “Spring celebration”. Tell me, what was the nature of this unitary and single “Spring celebration” that covered North Africa, the Levant, Greece, Anatolia, Skythia, Rus, etc?** They all had variant celebrations of the spring equinox. The name of the celebration varied as did the name of the Goddess. The celebration of the resurrection of Christ was incorporated into these festivals. > [@](#): > > **How can you explain that my own Church has no knowledge of this “Easter”? We have Pascha. Likewise do our Russian brothers, our Romanian brothers, and indeed, all the way east to India among the St. Thomas Christians there. All have Pascha. There is none of this “Easter”? You’re not taking some sort of ignorant, ethnocentric “Western Christianity is the only way it’s done” viewpoint, are you?** [Greek Orthodox Easter](http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Apr98/1600.html) [Russian Orthodox Easter](http://www.teachersfirst.com/russ-easter.htm) [Romanian Orthodox Easter](http://www.meetromania.info/uk_easter_2002.html) Looks to me like they’ve heard of it. Just to be clear, though, I wasn’t attempting to make any sweeping generalizations about Christianity as a whole, I was only talking about certain traditions, now practiced on Easter Sunday, that were Pagan in origin. The word “Easter” is derived from a Pagan Goddess. The timing of the holiday corresponds with ancient Pagan celebrations of the Spring Solstice. These are facts. Even if Eastern orthodoxy doesn’t subscribe to these things that doesn’t mean that the _Western_ traditions don’t and that’s all I was talking about. BTW, are you really arguing with the etymology of the word “Easter” or just with notion that the celebration had a Pagan origin? I’m not really sure what you’re so upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/109 "2003-10-07T01:25:36Z")
**Dogface** seems to have a burr in his saddle about any remotely imagine insult to the Orthodox church. **Dogface** , calm down, please. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/110 "2003-10-07T03:36:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > This urban legend irritates me no end. There are no weirdoes putting poisons, razor blades, or hard drugs in candy. There have been exactly two recorded instances of children dying because they consumed poisoned candy, and in each case it was a family member who adulterated the treats. If you walk wioth your kids to protect them against traffic and if you inspect the candy at home, you and your children will have a great Halloween. > > It’s this baseless fearmongering plus fundie ignorance and hatred of anything that is not consonant with their blinkered worldview that is ruining a great holiday. Yes, us ignorant fundies, so full of hate. And if ignorance is bliss, you must be as happy as there fundies you keep dissing. I don’t know really what is so great about this ‘great holiday’. If it’s so great, why don’t we get a stat for it? That to me would make it a great holiday. But each to their own, I’ll just go muse in my hate. On an unrelated note, Good Friday isn’t the same day as Jesus’ death, since Jesus wasn’t crucified on a Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/111 "2003-10-07T03:49:17Z")
> [@](#): > > On an unrelated note, Good Friday isn’t the same day as Jesus’ death, since Jesus wasn’t crucified on a Friday. Incorrect. All four Gospels say that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. They differ as to whether that Friday was the passover. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/112 "2003-10-07T04:34:50Z")
Incorrect. And if you believe it was Friday, you will have another infamous contradiction. It was before the Sabbath and after the Sabbath that the ladies came to anoint the body. There was a high Sabbath at the time. So there was a Sabbath Wed night to Thursday night, ladies came Friday, then there was the Sabbath Friday night to Saturday. So Jesus was killed on a Wednesday, and was in the tomb three days and nights, which means He rose again sometime after Saturday evening. Now I know I’m going to get asked for a cite, and I believe John mentions the high Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/113 "2003-10-07T05:03:33Z")
I don’t know where you’re getting this nonsense but the Gospels clearly say he was taken off the cross for the sabbath, which started on Friday night. They also say he was crucified on the Day of Preparation which guess what…is on Friday. Just to nail it down for you, here’s a quote from Mark 15:42 > [@](#): > > It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). The day before the Sabbath is _Friday_, son. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/114 "2003-10-07T05:11:29Z")
Well _dad_, I think I said there was a High Sabbath. Read here: [http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/easter3.htm](http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/easter3.htm) Granted I don’t agree with all they say, but they cover the high sabbath pretty well. And you are correct, it was the day before the sabbath, but you are still wrong. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/115 "2003-10-07T05:12:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Yes, us ignorant fundies, so full of hate. And if ignorance is bliss, you must be as happy as there fundies you keep dissing. I don’t know really what is so great about this ‘great holiday’. If it’s so great, why don’t we get a stat for it? That to me would make it a great holiday. But each to their own, I’ll just go muse in my hate. \*\* A stat? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/116 "2003-10-07T05:17:43Z")
John 19: 31Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (**for that Sabbath was a _high day_), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.** Therefore the women came before and after the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/117 "2003-10-07T05:19:48Z")
Sorry, statutory holiday/paid day off. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/118 "2003-10-07T05:33:51Z")
I have no idea what you’re talking about, **Svt**. The Sabbath is the Sabbath. A “high” day is a holy day. The passage from John just means that this particular Sabbath fell on the holy day of Passover. (John places the passover the day after the crucifixion, the synoptics place it _on_ the Passover) It was still a friday. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/119 "2003-10-07T05:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > but they cover the high sabbath pretty well. Actually, it appears that Rev. Olson is making it up as he goes along. The Sabbath is the name of the day of the week and no appeal to its etymology of “rest” (which Olson does not actually attempt) successfully turns every day of rest into a “sabbath.” Olson’s many attacks against “the Catholic Church” clearly demonstrate his ignorance of the traditions of the Orthodox, to say nothing of the Syriacs and other Christian traditions that are not “Roman Catholic,” along with the writings of all the other Christian theologians who wrote in the period before most people recognize a “Catholic” church establishing itself. (As well, he appears to have little grasp of Jewish traditions and history.) John 19:31 does not say that there was a special sabbath in a different part of the week, it says that the normal sabbath that occurred in that week was special. In order to claim otherwise, you are going to need to provide evidence from a Jewish source that they ever identified any day of the week other than the seventh as a sabbath (and not merely as a day of rest). Olson’s claims are also placed on the very shaky ground that he knows the specific year in which Jesus was crucified so that he can adjust his calendar accordingly. I suspect that some of his claims in _that_ regard are circular and based on self-fullfilling speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/120 "2003-10-07T05:59:21Z")
[http://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/page/questions/ID/34.htm](http://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/page/questions/ID/34.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226.md?page=7)