# Christian Fundamentalists vs. Halloween **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226 "2002-10-28T07:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/121 "2003-10-07T06:00:36Z")
[http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/course/lesson13.html](http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/course/lesson13.html) Sorry, this could have been one post… but from this link: > [@](#): > > In addition to the weekly Sabbath day, Yahweh the Almighty God of Israel has seven annual Sabbaths. Every one of them is a memorial of a great event in the Plan of Salvation. The explanatory booklet entitled The Festivals of the God of Israel is available online. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/122 "2003-10-07T06:16:37Z")
Providing minority Christian views is all very well, but you have, so far, failed to demonstrate that those speculations are grounded in Jewish Law or tradition. [Jewish Encyclopedia: Sabbath](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=13&letter=S#0) [Jewish Encyclopedia: other references to Sabbath](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/directory.jsp?letter=S&partition=1&pageNum=2) It has been a popular passtime among some Christians to extrapolate what Jewish Law/custom/belief was, (or “should” have been), based on the theological needs of those Christians. However, without some _Jewish_ evidence for your position, it strikes me that most of the claims for Sabbath on a day other than our Saturday are spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/123 "2003-10-07T06:21:18Z")
**Svt** , you’re aware that your second link is a _Christian_ link, are you not? you haven’t really produced any evidence that _Judaism_ would designate a different day than Saturday as the Sabbath. The clearest reading by far of the Gospels is that it was a normal Sabbath which John further identified as a Holy Day. It seems to me like you’re linking to Fundamentalist apologists who are trying to spin the gospels in suchh a way as to make them fit a literal prophesy of Jesus spending “three days and nights” in the tomb. All I can tell you is that the arguments are very flawed and that they are out of step with serious scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/124 "2003-10-07T12:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***Dogface** seems to have a burr in his saddle about any remotely imagine insult to the Orthodox church. > > **Dogface** , calm down, please. \*\* I will calm down upon the day that people stop ignorantly looking at just the West and then impute it to all of Christianity, which includes Orthodoxy. On that day, I will calm down. Until then, I will expose the ignorance for what it is, or is it bad to fight ignorance on this board? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/125 "2003-10-07T12:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > Olson’s many attacks against “the Catholic Church” clearly demonstrate his ignorance of the traditions of the Orthodox, to say nothing of the Syriacs and other Christian traditions that are not “Roman Catholic,” along with the writings of all the other Christian theologians who wrote in the period before most people recognize a “Catholic” church establishing itself. (As well, he appears to have little grasp of Jewish traditions and history.) So, in other words, he’s perfectly qualified to make blanket claims about Christianity, just like many posters on this board. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/126 "2003-10-07T13:14:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, us ignorant fundies, so full of hate. Thank you for admitting it. you people hate horror movies, you hate scary costumes, you hate innocent fun, and you hate the idea that anyone can have a good time that is not sanctioned by your church. And of course, you hate me and mine, but that’s 24/7/365. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@The\_Heathen\_DJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Heathen_DJ)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/127 "2003-10-07T13:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*[http://www.religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org) > \*\* That’s the same place that seems to neglect that the Cult Awareness Network was purchased by Scientology, instead claiming that it was bought by some sort of body devoted to “religious understanding”, right? \*\* [/QUOTE] No, they didn’t. In the first few paragraphs of “the NEW C.A.N”, on: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm2.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm2.htm) The tell it all out. And the “promoting religious understanding” tagline is their own, not the C.A.N.'s, pre or post Travolta. MP, Lou ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/128 "2003-10-07T15:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*I will calm down upon the day that people stop ignorantly looking at just the West and then impute it to all of Christianity, which includes Orthodoxy. On that day, I will calm down. Until then, I will expose the ignorance for what it is, or is it bad to fight ignorance on this board? \*\* Well, yes. But not at the expense of being a jerk. That’s the #1 rule around here. Seeings how this _isn’t_ the Pit, your immediate _ad hominem_ attacks and general nastyness directed at those who don’t share your opinion is pretty uncalled for. You _do_ realize that lashing out at people is a great way to alienate them, don’t you? Alienated people aren’t going to be rushing to agree with you or even really care about your position. I’m actually suprised that everyone you’ve attacked here has remained so calm in their responses. Says a lot about the character (amongst _most_ posters) of this board. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/129 "2003-10-07T15:24:06Z")
Whoops, that was supposed to me “Well, no.” ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/130 "2003-10-07T15:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***Svt** , you’re aware that your second link is a _Christian_ link, are you not? > > you haven’t really produced any evidence that _Judaism_ would designate a different day than Saturday as the Sabbath. The clearest reading by far of the Gospels is that it was a normal Sabbath which John further identified as a Holy Day. > > It seems to me like you’re linking to Fundamentalist apologists who are trying to spin the gospels in suchh a way as to make them fit a literal prophesy of Jesus spending “three days and nights” in the tomb. > > All I can tell you is that the arguments are very flawed and that they are out of step with serious scholarship. \*\* Yes, I can see how my argument is flawed, since it doesn’t agree with you. But since obviously they are all wrong since they are not Jewish, please tell me what the second last paragraph says in this link: [http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Rm%2014%20&%20Sabbath.pdf](http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Rm%2014%20&%20Sabbath.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/131 "2003-10-07T15:36:03Z")
Let me make it easy for you: “Should one begin to bring the omer of grain to the priests following Pesach, Pesach being a Sabbath **regardless of what day of the week it fel upon**.” Bolding mine. But maybe this still isn’t Jewish enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/132 "2003-10-07T15:37:36Z")
oops, fell upon…:smack: > **[TorahResource - Providing Educational Resources to Torah Communities](https://torahresource.com/)** > > TorahResource exists to provide biblically based materials for Torah communities and leadership training within the broader Messianic movement. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/133 "2003-10-07T17:30:16Z")
Errrrmmm so what the hell does any of this have to do with Halloween… Open yer own danged thread! Sheesh Bloody hijackers bloody littering up bloody threads with their bloody posts! Ok so Here is my view of this issue this year. There is nothing wrong with a good harmless scare or thrill. This time of year the little ones want to dress up and get candy, and there is nothing evil about that (Unless kids beging for free shell outs seems godless) Some people dress up scary or do up their house with macbre imagry and try to add a little atmosphere, again no foul. No one is going out trying to invoke Satan to take over the world, nor are they really killing or harming anyone. If someone takes offense to it fine, that is their perogative, however if they actively try to ruin it for others then that is another thing all together. I stand by my poory written post last year when I say these people have some defieciency that makes them only happy when others are as miserable as they are. Happy Halloween everyone… Be safe and be happy. If you are not celibrating then enjoy whatever it is you want to do… just don’t try to spoil everyone elses good time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/134 "2003-10-07T19:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*Yes, I can see how my argument is flawed, since it doesn’t agree with you. But since obviously they are all wrong since they are not Jewish, please tell me what the second last paragraph says in this link: [http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Rm%2014%20&%20Sabbath.pdf](http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Rm%2014%20&%20Sabbath.pdf) \*\* That’s still not a Jewish source, **Svt** , it’s a website for Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews are Christians. [Torahresource.com](http://Torahresource.com) uses pseudo-Jewish language and Hebraisms to push a born-again Christian message. There really isn’t a reason to infer that the Sabbath of the Passions was anything other than a normal Saturday. John also designates it as the Passover (a day later than the synoptics) which is why it is referred to as a “high” day. Look at the way it’s phrased in John ("for that Sabbath was a high day). It doesn’t say that day was a “High Sabbath.” It was a Sabbath first and a Holy Day second. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/135 "2003-10-07T19:55:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I have no idea what you’re talking about, **Svt**. The Sabbath is the Sabbath. A “high” day is a holy day. \*\* Well, the Sabbath before Passover starts is called _Shabbat haGadol_, which is usually translated “The Great Sabbath”, but could also be translated “The High Sabbath”, so maybe that was what John was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/136 "2003-10-07T20:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*I will calm down upon the day that people stop ignorantly looking at just the West and then impute it to all of Christianity, which includes Orthodoxy. On that day, I will calm down. Until then, I will expose the ignorance for what it is, or is it bad to fight ignorance on this board? \*\* I understand where you’re coming from. Many people make blithe statements about “Christian” beliefs and practices which are based on largely Western perceptions of Christianity and which ignore Eastern Orthodoxy (“Original Sin” is a perfect example). My intention with my “Pagan Easter” remark, however, was not that “Christians” as a monolithic group practice Pagan traditions. I was only pointing out the irony that many of the same people who condemn Halloween as pagan also paint Easter eggs and decorate Christmas trees and those are Pagan traditions as well. I’m really only addressing the more secularized, non-religious practices and trappings of those holidays, not church practices or doctrine. If Eastern Orthodoxy does not practice these traditions then they are exempt from the hypocrisy I’m alleging for some western fundies. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/137 "2003-10-07T20:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Well, the Sabbath before Passover starts is called _Shabbat haGadol_, which is usually translated “The Great Sabbath”, but could also be translated “The High Sabbath”, so maybe that was what John was referring to. \*\* I think you may be right. If John’s Passover started on Saturday Night then the period from friday sundown to saturday sundown would qualify for such a designation. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/138 "2003-10-07T20:44:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But maybe this still isn’t Jewish enough for you? True enough, since “Messianic Jews” are Christians, not Jews. Now, the argument that the article describes is interesting. However, it seems to indicate, mostly, that there was not a unanimous opinion within the Jewish community on the subject. In the [Jewish Encyclopedia article on Pentecost/Shabu’ot](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=177&letter=P&search=pentecost#653), they note: > [@](#): > > the Rabbis maintained that “Sabbath” here means simply a day of rest and refers to Passover. In other words, those holding for Pesach as sabbath indicated their belief merely that it was a day of rest, not that it was a special Sabbath in the way that we might capitalize the word. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/139 "2003-10-08T05:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Gobear_ > This urban legend irritates me no end. There are no weirdoes putting poisons, razor blades, or hard drugs in candy. There have been exactly two recorded instances of children dying because they consumed poisoned candy, and in each case it was a family member who adulterated the treats. If you walk wioth your kids to protect them against traffic and if you inspect the candy at home, you and your children will have a great Halloween. > > It’s this baseless fearmongering plus fundie ignorance and hatred of anything that is not consonant with their blinkered worldview that is ruining a great holiday. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Svt4Him_ > Yes, us ignorant fundies, so full of hate. And if ignorance is bliss, you must be as happy as there fundies you keep dissing. I don’t know really what is so great about this ‘great holiday’. If it’s so great, why don’t we get a stat for it? That to me would make it a great holiday. But each to their own, I’ll just go muse in my hate. For the record, [here](http://www.snopes.com/horrors/poison/hallowee.htm) [are](http://www.snopes.com/horrors/mayhem/needles.htm) [some relevant links](http://www.snopes.com/holidays/halloween/halloween.asp?music=off) on this subject. Also, can we please get back to the subject of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226/140 "2003-10-08T10:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **The word “Easter” is derived from a Pagan Goddess. The timing of the holiday corresponds with ancient Pagan celebrations of the Spring Solstice. These are facts.** Not necessarily. The Eostre-Easter theory rests only on a single comment by Bede and it has long troubled the experts that there are no other sources mentioning a goddess called ‘Eostre’ (despite all the ingenious attempts to come up with the Ishtar-type comparisons). Many historians therefore think that Bede had simply fallen for a dodgy piece of folk etymology. It would be a bit like guessing that Thanksgiving was an attempt to hijack the commemoration of the mysterious pagan goddess Novem. Also the spring equinox (there is no such thing as the ‘Spring Solstice’) never coincided with Eosturmonath. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **I was only pointing out the irony that many of the same people who condemn Halloween as pagan also paint Easter eggs and decorate Christmas trees and those are Pagan traditions as well.** Actually, there is no real evidence that Christmas trees do derive from pagan traditions. Although the alternative story involving Luther is also wrong (or at least not the whole story), Christmas trees can only be documented back to the late Middle Ages. That is far too late for it to be plausibly suggested as some sort of pagan survival. There is slightly more evidence that Easter eggs might derive from pagan traditions, although even then that theory is mostly just guesswork. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendRob \* > **Thanks for the quote, Dogface. Clearly the Samhain connection is ruled out. But that still leaves open the question of why the Saints festival was moved to November 1 in northern Europe. Does Hutton give any clues?** Most of the clues are in the passage quoted by **Dogface**. There is no reason to believe that the German churches had moved the date. Churches in several different places came up with the idea of a feast day for martyrs, quite possibly independently of each other, and the German churches happened to pick 1 November. No one seems to know why that date was chosen, but, as the Germans had never celebrated Samhain or, so far as we know, any other pagan festival on that date, we shouldn’t just jump to the conclusion that the choice of date was intended to be significant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-fundamentalists-vs-halloween/134226.md?page=8)