# Christian loyalty to the US **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906 "2014-12-22T13:52:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/21 "2014-12-22T19:40:26Z")
I’ve never figured out how the Christians who are loyal to a country work that part out anyway. The author of the letter to the Hebrews says we’re just visiting this planet, and our true allegiance is to a heavenly country. Jesus preached the good news of the Kingdom of God. I don’t believe either Israel or the U.S. of A. is synonymous with that heavenly kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/22 "2014-12-22T19:43:33Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I don’t get this at all. > > Secular liberal goyim hate Israel passionately, and are rooting openly for Israel’s enemies. > > But you prefer them to the people who are actually on your side. Personally, as a secular liberal, I’d rather be supported by people like me. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/23 "2014-12-22T19:49:49Z")
I’m not an expert or anything, but shouldn’t a Christian’s _ultimate_ loyalty be to God? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/24 "2014-12-22T19:52:43Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I’m not an expert or anything, but shouldn’t a Christian’s _ultimate_ loyalty be to God? +1. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/25 "2014-12-22T20:20:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I don’t get this at all. > > Secular liberal goyim hate Israel passionately, and are rooting openly for Israel’s enemies. > > But you prefer them to the people who are actually on your side. For one thing, the idea that ‘secular liberal goyim’ are rooting openly for Israel’s opponents is ridiculously foolish. In my experience - which I’d bet is wider than yours on this topic - most liberal folks either don’t care much or support Israel’s right to exist. So your argument fails right at the get go unless you’re believing someone’s hype. On the second, the Christian Zionists aren’t on Israel’s side. Again in my experience, they want Israel to succeed so that Israel can cease to exist. Again, imagine that if their dream came true - Christ returned to claim his kingdom - they’d brush a jewish state aside as suddenly irrelevant. Like those idiotic ‘completed jews’ who believe that they’re jews who believe Christ was the messiah 2000 years ago and therefore they’re jews who have taken the final step. In my book, jews who believe that Christ was the messiah ain’t exactly jews. Call me silly. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/26 "2014-12-22T20:30:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > For one thing, the idea that ‘secular liberal goyim’ are rooting openly for Israel’s opponents is ridiculously foolish. In my experience - which I’d bet is wider than yours on this topic - most liberal folks either don’t care much or support Israel’s right to exist. So your argument fails right at the get go unless you’re believing someone’s hype. > > On the second, the Christian Zionists aren’t on Israel’s side. Again in my experience, they want Israel to succeed so that Israel can cease to exist. Again, imagine that if their dream came true - Christ returned to claim his kingdom - they’d brush a jewish state aside as suddenly irrelevant. Like those idiotic ‘completed jews’ who believe that they’re jews who believe Christ was the messiah 2000 years ago and therefore they’re jews who have taken the final step. > > In my book, jews who believe that Christ was the messiah ain’t exactly jews. Call me silly. No, you’re way beyond silly. You’re verging on paranoid delusions. I read conservative periodicals and web sites all the time. The ulterior motives you ascribe to Christian conservatives are way off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/27 "2014-12-22T20:33:47Z")
I’m not sure that responding to disparaging remarks is much of a test of loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/28 "2014-12-22T20:44:04Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > No, you’re way beyond silly. You’re verging on paranoid delusions. > > I read conservative periodicals and web sites all the time. The ulterior motives you ascribe to Christian conservatives are way off the mark. Indeed, yet reading conservative periodicals and web sites leads you to believe that secular non-jews all oppose Israel? Isn’t it JUST possible that you’re being presented with a biased source of information? And my read on messianic jews comes straight from a few churches and discussions I’ve had with leaders of such. I did an article for one of my newspapers on them several years ago. It is possible to support Israel as the only functinal democracy in the region. That’s certainly true and I’d honor that. But the Christian fundamentalists aren’t doing it for that reason, they’re pursuing it for reasons that are inherently not about democracy and such. It’s religion that guides that sort of support. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/29 "2014-12-22T22:05:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You want to find out what fundamentalist right-wing Christians think with a poll on the SDMB? Good luck with that. > > Regards, > Shodan Exactly. One would not get what is referred to in the trade as a “statistically significant sample size”. > [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I’m not an expert or anything, but shouldn’t a Christian’s _ultimate_ loyalty be to God? That’s what I though the poll was going to be about. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/30 "2014-12-22T22:16:23Z")
My ultimate loyalty lies towards education, freedom, happiness, justice, mercy, democracy, and other values I feel are important to the future of humanity. Some random lines on a map have no impact on who I pledge allegiance to. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > As a _terrible_ jew who lives in American I’ve always found those fundamentalist Christians who go on about Israel to be creepy as all hell. Some of them just won’t shut up about it. This. Holocaust guilt accounts for a portion of it, but from the way I’ve heard some conservative Christians go _on_ about Netanyahu - I really have no idea what’s going on there. It’s like nervously introducing your friend to your crazy family member, then having said friend fall and love with and marry them. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/31 "2014-12-22T23:21:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Indeed, yet reading conservative periodicals and web sites leads you to believe that secular non-jews all oppose Israel? Isn’t it JUST possible that you’re being presented with a biased source of information? > > And my read on messianic jews comes straight from a few churches and discussions I’ve had with leaders of such. I did an article for one of my newspapers on them several years ago. > > It is possible to support Israel as the only functinal democracy in the region. That’s certainly true and I’d honor that. But the Christian fundamentalists aren’t doing it for that reason, they’re pursuing it for reasons that are inherently not about democracy and such. It’s religion that guides that sort of support. Ahhhh… well if that’s true, then there should be a long, ugly history of anti-semitism among Christians in the South. But there isn’t it. Jews have been accepted in the American South for centuries… possibly because Southern Protestants hated Catholics too much to work up too much hatred for Jews. Don’t believe me? Trivia time: 1. What were the first two states to have Jewish Senators? 2. Who had a Jewish Cabinet member first- the USA or the Confederacy? 3. What was the first state with a Jewish governor? 1. Florida and Louisiana, in the 19th century (long before many Jews lived in either state) 2. The Confederacy 3. Georgia ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/32 "2014-12-23T00:31:33Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > MAYBE somewhere there are CHristians who are pro-Israel for what liberal, secular Jews regard as the wrong reasons. I haven’t encountered them. I hear often that liberal, secular Jews shouldn’t trust pro-Israel Christians because they’re motivated by a hope that a war in the Middle East will trigger the Rapture and the end of the world. I haven’t encountered any such Christians, either. > > Speaking ONLY for myself, I am sypathetic to Israel because the Jews, alone among all nations, have been oppressed and persecuetd nearly everywhere they’ve lived, and I understand the need for a secure homeland for Jews. End of story. I don’t believe Israel’s existence is divinely mandated, and the exact location of Israel’s borders is a matter of complete indifference to me. I generally support and respect Israel, but they’re just another country. I have no problem calling them out when their behavior is questionable or even immoral. Right, so you don’t have the kind of peculiar “strong affinity” described in the OP. I _have_ met these apocalyptic Christians. I’ve had neighbors who were such, and I’ve heard the preaching. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > …the Christian zionists - if that’s the right word - want the jews to succeed so they can advance their own thing. You are correct. These people are not “pro-Israel” in any conventional political sense, and they are not pro-Jewish in either a humanist or religious way. Their plan for Israeli Jews involves conversion at what they reckon the Biblically correct time; or, extermination and Hell. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/33 "2014-12-23T04:49:19Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ve never figured out how the Christians who are loyal to a country work that part out anyway. The author of the letter to the Hebrews says we’re just visiting this planet, and our true allegiance is to a heavenly country. > > Jesus preached the good news of the Kingdom of God. I don’t believe either Israel or the U.S. of A. is synonymous with that heavenly kingdom. Yes, liberal except for on abortion Catholic here, and I can’t imagine being “loyal” to one or the other. I live in the United States and folow its laws to the extent that they don’t violate my morals, but that’s about it. Wasn’t able to answer the poll. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/34 "2014-12-23T06:01:42Z")
My loyalty is towards Jesus Christ, not to America, Israel, Cuba or Iran. Any Christian who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you (or more likely, unconsciously trying to sell themselves) a bill of goods. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/35 "2014-12-23T11:02:13Z")
This thread seems to assume a very tribal orientated mindset. It’s a bit weird. Fwiw, unless you’re of the professional middle classes or higher, in the US it seems absurd to align yourself with the political class - the people who run the US have been kicking you in the balls for 50 years. If you have any _loyalty_ at it it must surely lay with fellow workers, and not politicians who wrap the agenda of corporate vested interests they serve in the national flag, and interpretations of the constitution. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/36 "2014-12-23T13:27:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > No, you’re way beyond silly. You’re verging on paranoid delusions. > > I read conservative periodicals and web sites all the time. The ulterior motives you ascribe to Christian conservatives are way off the mark. I’m with **JC** on this one. I remember a couple decades back when the MSM first noticed the strong support for Israel among conservative Christians and were scratching their collective heads about where that came from. And all I could think was, “where have you guys _been??_” because I’ve been hearing this stuff for most of my 44 years as a Christian. (I knew where they’d been, of course: the intersection of the two sets, “MSM reporters” and “conservative Christians” was pretty damn small.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/37 "2014-12-23T14:47:43Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Ahhhh… well if that’s true, then there should be a long, ugly history of anti-semitism among Christians in the South. But there isn’t it. Jews have been accepted in the American South for centuries… possibly because Southern Protestants hated Catholics too much to work up too much hatred for Jews. > > Don’t believe me? Trivia time: > > 1. What were the first two states to have Jewish Senators? > > 2. Who had a Jewish Cabinet member first- the USA or the Confederacy? > > 3. What was the first state with a Jewish governor? > > 1. Florida and Louisiana, in the 19th century (long before many Jews lived in either state) > > 2. The Confederacy > > 3. Georgia True or not, I see no way in which that’s relevant to the discussion at hand. Yes, jews in the confederacy acheived things like recognition. But don’t you think that maybe…just maybe…it was because there was some other group - gotta be some group - more put upon in the deep south? Maybe? It seems as though you’re trying to make some sort of southern christian from 150 years ago connection concerning modern political behavior. But I might have easily - and as usefully - tried to connect [phrenology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology) to modern scientific thought. Alternately, we could go out on a limb and prove that groups of people don’t believe the same things over the course of decades. It’ll be a hard lift but I think it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/38 "2014-12-23T15:12:41Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It’s not really that American fundamentalist Christians are “loyal to Israel” in the conventional nationalist/patriotic sense. There is a set that is devoted to a certain concept of the _role_ that “Israel” (not exactly congruent with the state) is supposed to play in the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. ^ This. Also, to really understand the Old Testament writings one must understand the Jewish culture of the time. It is not unusual for someone to develop an affinity for a culture that they understand. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/39 "2014-12-23T16:15:32Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It’s not really that American fundamentalist Christians are “loyal to Israel” in the conventional nationalist/patriotic sense. There is a set that is devoted to a certain concept of the _role_ that “Israel” (not exactly congruent with the state) is supposed to play in the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. That has always been my take. They heap love upon Israel, wax poetically about Judeo-Christian values, and support Israel no matter what because the Jews have to be there for the End of Times to happen. Then once that’s done, they assume the Jews will go to hell for rejecting Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906/40 "2014-12-23T16:24:01Z")
Or convert. I’m sure Jesus will be very easy going on that point once all’s said and done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-loyalty-to-the-us/707906.md?page=3)