# Christian Modesty Survey or How Girls are Stumbling Blocks **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 30, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562 "2010-07-30T10:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/21 "2010-08-02T11:51:54Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Jeans are more immodest than any skirt? I did not know that. I’m more likely to think dirty, disgusting thoughts about my wife whenever I see her in a skirt than when she’s in jeans. > > Why am I the last to know anything? Opinions apparently differ. [QUOTE=Age 21] If the jeans aren’t tight, then I’d have to look pretty hard and intently. At that point, no type of clothing is going to help. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Age 30-34] I don’t think they as feminine as dress/ skirts. All jeans are snug around the crotch. I think they should be worn for necessity and for non-social reasons (most practical when hiking). [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Age 13] Usually they aren’t, but it’s a little disconcerting to see girls in jeans since that is generally what a guy wears. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Age 26] Pants with visible button fly up the crotch should be avoided - as with anything that draws attention to the crotch. It almost seems to draw on top an image of what’s underneath, or at least follow or recreate those lines. That’s bad. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Age 21] There is an attitude change that follows wearing jeans for women, You may not notice until you try wearing skirts for a while. I cannot put it into words exactly, but I am far more relaxed and comfortable when a girl wears a skirt. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Age 23] The main problem with jeans, if they aren’t tight, is that underwear and often more is exposed whenever you bed over unless something is covering the waist area. [/QUOTE] (Great typo!) ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/22 "2010-08-02T18:02:53Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Silly! Women don’t have desires! They just exist to titillate real people, er, men. Ah, okay. … Well, wait then. Whose dirty thoughts are these in my head, then?? (He was wearing a tight t-shirt. These desires are totally not my fault! 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/23 "2010-08-02T18:22:45Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > [Here’ a link](http://contexts.org/socimages/2010/07/27/guys-on-immodesty-lust-and-the-violence-of-womens-bodies/) to a blog discussing said survey. If you can’t get the first website to work, you can at least get some more info about it. > > Personally, I think the way men seem to put the onus on women to keep men’s sexual urges ate bay is twisted and makes me angry. My initial reaction to reading that blog post was “These guys reeeealllly need to get laid.” If they can’t be around a woman who walks, runs, bends over, or stretches without getting all hot and bothered, that’s a serious problem, and not for the women. Saying that they actually can’t cope (or can barely cope) with being in the presence of a woman who is _just going about her business_ screams “deep mental health issues” to me. And sorry, their issues are not my problem. If he can’t deal with it, I invite him to stay home so he doesn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/24 "2010-08-02T18:34:00Z")
Pretty much. It’s a complete abdication of personal responsibility and I find that offensive. If there were a god, I’d be allowed to smack the stupid out of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/25 "2010-08-02T18:38:47Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Jeans are more immodest than any skirt? I did not know that. I’m more likely to think dirty, disgusting thoughts about my wife whenever I see her in a skirt than when she’s in jeans. Apparently the survey results agree with you. Well, not about your wife, since they don’t even know her. Their loss, undoubtedly. But the survey respondents resoundingly reject the idea that jeans are immodest. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/26 "2010-08-02T20:37:46Z")
Are you guys reading the results correctly? The questions are just positively-phrased statements that the respondent agrees or disagrees with. A lot of the offensive statements are stongly disagreed with and quite a few could be called “no conclusion”. The jeans one was soundly rejected, for instance. As were other silly ones like “It is a stumbling block for a girl wearing pants to sit cross-legged (i.e. Indian style).” Even some of the ones where they agreed didn’t necessarily abdicate responsibility. They were just like “It’s hard to think pure thoughts when women do that.” And then there’s this: > [@](#): > > 1.7% of the guys surveyed feel strongly that girls shouldn’t show their calves. Is it now Burkha Day for all well-meaning Christian women? Absolutely not! In reading through the survey, you might have trouble finding a single item of clothing that someone, somewhere, doesn’t have a problem with. So where do we draw the line? > > Well, the fact is that 98.3% guys DO NOT feel strongly that girls shouldn’t show their calves. If you look at the survey results you will find that 99.9% of the guys take full responsibility for themselves, and don’t expect women to cover every inch of skin – they’re just asking for help. > > The honest truth is this: We’re not telling you what to wear – we’re just telling you what we, as guys, have to guard against. It is God’s Word, your own heart and conscience, and your parents and godly friends who should help you decide what to do about it. I’m still looking for a truly offensive result. Anyone see any? ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/27 "2010-08-02T21:15:42Z")
Yes, “We’re just telling you what we have to guard against.” In other words, if you know this and wear these things, youre at fault! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/28 "2010-08-02T21:21:30Z")
Yeah, um, that last bit of explanation was far more “!!!” to me than any of the actual survey results. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/29 "2010-08-02T21:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Agree/Disagree Statement: It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit. > > 25% Strongly Disagree > 32.5% Disagree > 15.8% Neutral > 21.8% Agree > 4.8% Strongly Agree “It is _okay_.” Yeah, nothing’s wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/30 "2010-08-02T21:40:41Z")
**Chessic Sense** , it’s not how many agree. It’s the fact that men think they should have an opinion on what women wear based on how sexy it is. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/31 "2010-08-02T22:02:22Z")
Wait, so it’s offensive for a man to look at what a woman’s wearing and think about whether it’s sexy or not? Cause if it is, damn. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/32 "2010-08-02T22:05:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Wait, so it’s offensive for a man to look at what a woman’s wearing and think about whether it’s sexy or not? > > Cause if it is, damn. No. It is offensive for him to decide it’s a stumbling block or that women shouldn’t wear it if they don’t want to tempt men into sinful thoughts, or whatever it is. If men believe they’re acting sinfully, they should take responsibility for their actions instead of deciding that it’s miniskirts or a woman stretching her arms out a certain way or a bare midriff. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/33 "2010-08-02T22:11:18Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > My initial reaction to reading that blog post was “These guys reeeealllly need to get laid.” > > If they can’t be around a woman who walks, runs, bends over, or stretches without getting all hot and bothered, that’s a serious problem, and not for the women. Saying that they actually can’t cope (or can barely cope) with being in the presence of a woman who is _just going about her business_ screams “deep mental health issues” to me. And sorry, their issues are not my problem. If he can’t deal with it, I invite him to stay home so he doesn’t have to. That’s so what I was thinking. It’s one thing to care about modesty. It’s another to be so incapacitated by women that you can’t look at them without thinking sex. I don’t like girls running around with boobs falling out of bikini tops at the grocery store (though I do like boobs and them falling out of bikini tops at the beach!), but I’m not going to be so aroused by it that I can’t finish my shopping. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/34 "2010-08-02T22:31:27Z")
“Over 200 Christian girls submitted their questions. In less than twenty days, over 1,600 Christian guys (12 and up) responded.” That disparity amuses me. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/35 "2010-08-02T22:42:41Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Are you guys reading the results correctly? The questions are just positively-phrased statements that the respondent agrees or disagrees with. A lot of the offensive statements are stongly disagreed with and quite a few could be called “no conclusion”. The jeans one was soundly rejected, for instance. As were other silly ones like “It is a stumbling block for a girl wearing pants to sit cross-legged (i.e. Indian style).” True. But even the “silly ones” had some people agreeing with them and/or saying silly things in the text responses to them. For example, one of the responses to your example says > [@](#): > > To be safe put something in your lap if you can and/or don’t lean back and brace your hands behind you, also the more loose fitting around the pelvic area your pants are when sitting, the better. [QUOTE=Chessic Sense] Even some of the ones where they agreed didn’t necessarily abdicate responsibility. They were just like “It’s hard to think pure thoughts when women do that.” [/QUOTE] Again, true, to some extent. I think many of the respondents were just giving truthful responses to “Can it inspire lustful thoughts in you when women wear/do such-and-such?” And, since it doesn’t take much to inspire lustful thoughts in young men in their teens and twenties, the answer is often “yep, it sure can.” > [@BigBertha](#): > > Yes, “We’re just telling you what we have to guard against.” In other words, if you know this and wear these things, youre at fault! Well, not really. The site explicitly [places men’s responsibility to control lustful thoughts on the men themselves](http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/02/the-responsibility-of-modesty-part-one/). > [@](#): > > Let’s be honest. We’re men, and we’re responsible for ourselves. We’re responsible for our thoughts, for our lusts, for our character. We won’t be able to blame the girls when we’re called to give account for it in the judgment day. We won’t be able to say like Adam, “The woman you made…” But some of the text responses seem more willing to take that responsibility than others. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > > [@Lemur866](#): > > > > Wait, so it’s offensive for a man to look at what a woman’s wearing and think about whether it’s sexy or not? > > > > Cause if it is, damn. > > No. It is offensive for him to decide it’s a stumbling block or that women shouldn’t wear it if they don’t want to tempt men into sinful thoughts, or whatever it is. If men believe they’re acting sinfully, they should take responsibility for their actions instead of deciding that it’s miniskirts or a woman stretching her arms out a certain way or a bare midriff. Yes, of course men should take responsibility for their actions. But if I understand the website correctly, Christian women/girls specifically asked how they could best make it easier for men in that, and Christian men answered. > [@](#): > > In the strictest sense, it isn’t a survey, but a discussion between Christian guys and girls who care about modesty. Over 200 Christian girls submitted their questions. In less than twenty days, over 1,600Christian guys (12 and up) responded. If you’re not a “Christian guy or girl who cares about modesty,” this isn’t really for or about you—don’t take it personally. It’s kind of like, a recovering alcoholic should take responsibility for not drinking. A diabetic should take responsibility for not eating things that are going to cause them trouble. But the people who care about them, their friends and family members, may very well want to be sensitive to them and not do things that would tempt them unnecessarily. And so they’d ask things like, “Would it bother you if I drank this beer/ate this Twinkie in front of you?” None of this is to deny that some of the responses to that survey really make me want to shake the guys and tell them to get real! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/36 "2010-08-02T23:50:11Z")
Alcoholism is a disease. So’s diabetes. Sensitivity to them is an individual thing from person to person. This website is asking women to conduct themselves in certain ways on behalf of allegedly healthy and regular men in general. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/37 "2010-08-03T00:21:27Z")
I feel a little dumber for having read this. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/38 "2010-08-03T01:46:56Z")
Well, ok, I can see where they are sort of taking responsibility for their reactions, but I don’t think that’s the whole story. If I catch a view, my reaction is “oh, hey. That was nice.” and then get on with my non-sexual daily activity. I get the impression that these guys spend significant time fighting off their unclean, un-Godly thoughts up to the point of constant distraction. Meanwhile, I may get distracted, but because I accept that I’m going to get distracted and because I have a completely non-sexual purpose for interacting with a woman, I can get past the distraction rather easily. IOW, because I’m not obsessing over impropriety and the reaction it creates in me, I can focus on a completely non-sexual reason for noticing or interacting with women. This begs the question of who is the more obsessed with sex: the guy who casually notices or the guy who complains? This whole business of men defining female immodesty reinforces a personal maxim that says that the more you define yourself by what you’re not, the more strongly you are connected to it (and what you try to reject). To me, these guys are spending spend so much time rejecting the unclean thoughts realized through female immodesty that they can never get away from those unclean thoughts. Do they really want to admit that they’re mentally and spiritually impotent? The concern over immodesty also speaks of a fear of a world where women can be independent, self-directing and capable of making choices that don’t involve a man’s desire to have a dutiful wife. As skewed as the questionnaire might be, it further shows where the front lies in the culture war over female autonomy that includes birth control, access to abortion, social expectations, education, available career choices, respect and earned authority. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/39 "2010-08-03T02:07:05Z")
OK, let me get this straight: Purses worn across the body can be immodest, since they draw attention to the breasts. Shirts with pockets can be immodest, since they also draw attention to the breasts. In fact, we’re told that any article of clothing at all can be immodest. The solution is obvious: Good modest girls should wear nothing at all, to ensure that they don’t draw undue attention to their bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562/40 "2010-08-03T02:43:33Z")
While I think these results are indicative of an unfortunate belief in “thoughtcrime”, I don’t think this is anything to worry about. Preferring to spend time around people who don’t do something because you don’t like how it makes you feel is fine, as long as that’s as far as it goes. If they start blaming rape victims for attracting men like cats to meat, _then_ we’ve got a problem. > [@Chronos](#): > > OK, let me get this straight: Purses worn across the body can be immodest, since they draw attention to the breasts. Shirts with pockets can be immodest, since they also draw attention to the breasts. In fact, we’re told that any article of clothing at all can be immodest. The solution is obvious: Good modest girls should wear nothing at all, to ensure that they don’t draw undue attention to their bodies. “Nudity: If it’s good enough for Eve, it’s good enough for you.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-modesty-survey-or-how-girls-are-stumbling-blocks/548562.md?page=3)