# Christian Peacemaker Teams in Iraq - you're pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700 "2006-03-24T08:23:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/1 "2006-03-24T08:23:57Z")
Call yourself Christians? Ungrateful, snidy little shits would be more appropriate. They issued [a statement](http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20060323-005/page.asp) after the liberation of their colleagues in Iraq. Did they take the opportunity to thank the troops who risked their lives to free the hostages? Not a fucking chance. They did remember, however, to shovel some shit on their heads. _We believe that the illegal occupation of Iraq by Multinational Forces is the root cause of the insecurity which led to this kidnapping and so much pain and suffering in Iraq. The occupation must end._ Yes, we know you’re opposed to the occupation, that you’re fucking saints whose hearts ache for your Muslim brothers and sisters, we get all that. How about using some of that Christian charity to offer just a word of thanks to these particular soldiers? Doesn’t extend that far, huh? Hey, mustn’t forget the poor put upon terrorists, must we? \*Today, in the face of this joyful news, our faith compels us to love our enemies even when they have committed acts which caused great hardship to our friends and sorrow to their families. \* Fucking toads. You disgrace the name of a noble faith by your base ingratitude. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/2 "2006-03-24T08:32:02Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] \*Today, in the face of this joyful news, our faith compels us to love our enemies even when they have committed acts which caused great hardship to our friends and sorrow to their families. \* Fucking toads. You disgrace the name of a noble faith by your base ingratitude. Fuck you. [/QUOTE] I don’t know about you but that sounds pretty damn “Christ-like” to me. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/3 "2006-03-24T08:32:11Z")
Sanctimonious, I’d have to say, and opportunistic. As a Christian, I have always struggled with prayer, for one reason more than any other, and this group’s statement gets to the heart of it. It’s so easy to misrepresent the spirit (small “s”) of God by using his name manipulatively to serve one’s (political) ends. And there is no manipulation (or anything of deceit, deception or any kind of darkness) in God. Put rather flippantly, prayer’s okay if you speak normal language and don’t drag God into it. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/4 "2006-03-24T08:40:48Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] _We believe that the illegal occupation of Iraq by Multinational Forces is the root cause of the insecurity which led to this kidnapping and so much pain and suffering in Iraq. The occupation must end._ [/QUOTE] How is what they said wrong? They were there because they believed the occupation was wrong. They were abducted and then rescued and they still believe the occupation is wrong. They sound like people of very strong beliefs…beliefs not changed even through personal experience and hardship. I’m sure they are grateful to have survived BECAUSE they were rescued by troops but why should that mean they still think troops being there is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/5 "2006-03-24T09:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=calm kiwi] I’m sure they are grateful to have survived BECAUSE they were rescued by troops but why should that mean they still think troops being there is wrong? [/QUOTE] Perhaps they sought martyrdom? I mean, Jesus would have been pretty pissed off if some troops had rescued him from the cross: “Nail me back up! I’m doing this for _your_ sins - I don’t _want_ to be rescued!” Personally, I think they were just grandstanding dumbshits: like going to Iraq to preach Christian tolerance was going to achieve anything except get themselves blown up or taken hostage. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/6 "2006-03-24T09:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=roger thornhill] … there is no manipulation (or anything of deceit, deception or any kind of darkness) in God. [/QUOTE] [hijack]Even when he manipulated Pharaoh into not letting the Israelites go and then killed all the first born because Pharaoh wouldn’t let the Israelites go?[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/7 "2006-03-24T11:22:37Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] Perhaps they sought martyrdom? I mean, Jesus would have been pretty pissed off if some troops had rescued him from the cross: “Nail me back up! I’m doing this for _your_ sins - I don’t _want_ to be rescued!” Personally, I think they were just grandstanding dumbshits: like going to Iraq to preach Christian tolerance was going to achieve anything except get themselves blown up or taken hostage. [/QUOTE] Maybe. But todays Christians, to me, seem to fall into 3 distinct camps a) SEND ME MONEY b) I’m Christian and I believe in Jesus and you better damn respect that or I will tell you off c) I’m out to fix the world. This lot (in my mind anyway) were clearly C types. They wanted to do well. YES they were nuts but I don’t think they seem like CHRISTIAN headline grabbers. Anyway I’m glad they are home. Best wishes to the family of the one who isn’t. Many condolences. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/8 "2006-03-24T12:47:04Z")
The group has expressed gratitude to the soldiers that rescued them, though belatedly. Word is they were getting flooded with calls because of this. They still got an interesting dig in, though: > [@](#): > > We have been so overwhelmed and overjoyed to have Jim, Harmeet and Norman freed, that we have not adequately thanked the people involved with freeing them, nor remembered those still in captivity. So we offer these paragraphs as the first of several addenda: > We are grateful to the soldiers who risked their lives to free Jim, Norman and Harmeet. As peacemakers who hold firm to our commitment to nonviolence, we are also deeply grateful that they fired no shots to free our colleagues. [From here.](http://www.cpt.org/) I wonder if their gratitude would have been shaken badly had shots been fired. Neverless, I’m happy they’re home, where they should have stayed in the first damn place. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/9 "2006-03-24T13:23:49Z")
Well, now we know how the average Christian thinks of those who actually try to live a Christ-like life, don’t we? Working for peace? Unthinkable! Forgiving your enemies? Hypocritical! How is it hypocrisy to hold to their beliefs about pacifism even though they were rescued by the very forces they’re protesting against? Yes, I’m sure they’re grateful their colleagues were rescued. That doesn’t mean they have an obligation to say, “We were wrong. The invasion of Iraq was correct all along.” They don’t believe that. It would have been hypocritical to do that. What they did, rather, was NOT hypocritical. They’re not deserving of criticism for this, in my opinion… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/10 "2006-03-24T13:34:24Z")
No, they deserve some criticism. When the hostages were recovered, the group rejoiced over their “release”, not their rescue, and didn’t acknowlege at all that they were rescued by soldiers. Even a pacifist must admit that a soldier can sometimes do good, even if the military system is morally flawed. Which is what they later said in their subsequent statement, in so many words. Failing to do so from the start just smacks of denial. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/11 "2006-03-24T13:45:05Z")
You obviously are clueless as to the beliefs and mission of the CPT, **aldiboronti**. From another Friends statement regarding Tom Fox’s death: > [@](#): > > Bob Burnett- When I first heard that he had been captured, I was surprised that he was in Iraq at all. Before and during the invasion, Quakers had an active presence in Iraq–providing humanitarian assistance through the American Friends Service Committee, but one by one all those folks left as the situation became increasingly dangerous. I figured that Tom had a calling and felt he had to honor it by joining the Christian Peacemaker Teams in Iraq, regardless of the danger. > > Who killed Tom Fox? Why and what’s the reason for? > > For those of you who are not Quakers this may seem like craziness. But, within the history of The Society of Friends–the formal name for Quakers–it’s totally consistent. Since our beginning, in 1651, Quakers have had two characteristics that frequently get us in trouble: we believe that if you call yourself a Christian you should follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. And, we believe that God speaks directly to believers. > > Quakers note that Jesus was a pacifist. So we all try, in our own way, to be pacifists. Actually, all Christians used to be pacifists, but this changed in 313 AD when the bureaucracy of the Christian church reached an accommodation with the Roman Emperor Constantine: only priests had to be pacifists and only Christians could be in the Roman army… > > Out here on the radical fringe of Christianity, there are those of us who believe that there are worse things than being killed standing up for what you believe in. We feel that it’s better to honor our personal integrity, our relationship with the divine, than to play it safe. > > Out here on the edge, there are those of us who believe that Jesus didn’t suffer just one time all those years ago up on a lonely cross. We feel that Jesus dies in every generation, whenever good folks stand up for righteousness. This Jesus perished in the Holocaust and in the collapse of the Twin Towers. This Jesus expired when Tom Fox was tortured and shot. This Jesus dies over and over until human kind gets that we have to learn to live together in peace and justice. > > That’s why Tom Fox died. That’s the reason for. The members of the CPT knew the danger they were facing and consistently opposed intervention by violence should they be captured. While I am sure they are very grateful to be released, nothing about their rescue changed the horror that is Iraq today. The spokemen for the CPT is simply being true to the mission of the CPTwith his statement. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/12 "2006-03-24T14:08:57Z")
Pacifists can be very muddle-headed. I recommend “Why I am not a pacifist” by CS Lewis to them. **David** , I wonder, did God really _make_ Pharoah act the way he did? Wasn’t it his choice? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/13 "2006-03-24T14:18:00Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] How is it hypocrisy to hold to their beliefs about pacifism even though they were rescued by the very forces they’re protesting against? [/QUOTE] Whether or not it’s hypocrisy, it certainly shows that their pacifism is pretty fucking stupid. These are not people committed to a principle. These are people who have been blinded by their own vanity. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/14 "2006-03-24T14:37:00Z")
“Get down and LICK those boots in gratitude, you hippie!” Any demonstration of authentic Christian values makes what passes for “authentic Christian values” in our culture look positively Satanic. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/15 "2006-03-24T14:44:03Z")
The troops did their jobs for which they are paid. Saying thanks would have been polite but not necessary. Maintaining their opposition to the war is hardly the same as “shoveling shit on their heads.” You do NOT disrespect the troops by opposing the war. Decisions to go to war or not are political ones and it’s the troops’ job to do what they are told once those decisions are made. Whether the country is behind the war or not is unimportant. If your ego is so fragile that you must be thanked and honored and that every person in the nation must support every military action that the government takes, then I suggest you not get into the military. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/16 "2006-03-24T14:46:43Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Whether or not it’s hypocrisy, it certainly shows that their pacifism is pretty fucking stupid. These are not people committed to a principle. These are people who have been blinded by their own vanity. [/QUOTE] Believe what you will, nothing I say on a message board will change that. However, I would like to point out that, despite WWI and WII and all the other conflicts of the last century, military action has not made the world any safer or more secure. And before anyone launches into a defense of WWII as the ‘good’ war, may I suggest that if Germany had not been economically crushed after the first World War, and that if businesses in America and Europe had not aided and abetted the rise of the Nazi’s by supplying them with equipment while ignoring the government’s warmongering, and most of all, if the principal of recognizing the divine Light in each human being had been adopted by both the Germans and the allies, the Nazis would never have come into power. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/17 "2006-03-24T14:59:30Z")
[QUOTE=jlzania] Believe what you will, nothing I say on a message board will change that. However, I would like to point out that, despite WWI and WII and all the other conflicts of the last century, military action has not made the world any safer or more secure. And before anyone launches into a defense of WWII as the ‘good’ war, may I suggest that if Germany had not been economically crushed after the first World War, and that if businesses in America and Europe had not aided and abetted the rise of the Nazi’s by supplying them with equipment while ignoring the government’s warmongering, and most of all, if the principal of recognizing the divine Light in each human being had been adopted by both the Germans and the allies, the Nazis would never have come into power. [/QUOTE] That’s a lot of "if"s. The absense of those "if"s is why pacifism is absurd and immoral. “They (pacifists) preach that if you see a man flogging a woman to death you must not hit him. I would much sooner let a leper come near a little boy than a man who preached such a thing.”- G. K. Chesterton ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/18 "2006-03-24T15:00:19Z")
[QUOTE=jlzania] However, I would like to point out that, despite WWI and WII and all the other conflicts of the last century, military action has not made the world any safer or more secure. [/QUOTE] You’re a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/19 "2006-03-24T15:16:18Z")
[QUOTE=roger thornhill] **David** , I wonder, did God really _make_ Pharoah act the way he did? Wasn’t it his choice? [/QUOTE] [hijack] From the NRSV: > [@Exodus 7](#): > > The Lord said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. **3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart,** and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. 4When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgement… > [@Exodus 9](#): > > 11The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils afflicted the magicians as well as all the Egyptians. 12But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses. > [@Exodus 10](#): > > Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord.’ He does this a few more times. But sometimes Pharaoh’s heart is just hardened, he does it himself. Which… yeah, that always bothered me. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/20 "2006-03-24T15:21:59Z")
**Little Plastic Ninja** , There’s an issue in some versions of the Bible. Sadly, that’s mostly a very bad translation. For some reason it keeps popping up. Regardless, I’m uinformed by some people who read the original that the passage is more accurately rendered as, “he hardened his heart against the Lord.” I’m told it’s some kind of Hebrew grammar thing, but I don’t speak the language. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700.md?page=2)