# Christian Peacemaker Teams in Iraq - you're pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700 "2006-03-24T08:23:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/21 "2006-03-24T15:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] The troops did their jobs for which they are paid. Saying thanks would have been polite but not necessary. Maintaining their opposition to the war is hardly the same as “shoveling shit on their heads.” You do NOT disrespect the troops by opposing the war. Decisions to go to war or not are political ones and it’s the troops’ job to do what they are told once those decisions are made. Whether the country is behind the war or not is unimportant. If your ego is so fragile that you must be thanked and honored and that every person in the nation must support every military action that the government takes, then I suggest you not get into the military. [/QUOTE] Exactly. People are upset because they didn’t say _thank you_? Of course, if they don’t maintain niceties, then clearly they’re only one step away from terrorists themselves, those peace-loving bastards! I agree strict pacifism is a foolish idealogy. To condemn these people who are doing the best they can (in their eyes), and risking their lives in order to do so, because they didn’t say \*thank you \* in their statement (because we don’t know what they might have said to the actual troops when rescued) is equally foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/22 "2006-03-24T15:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] **Little Plastic Ninja** , There’s an issue in some versions of the Bible. Sadly, that’s mostly a very bad translation. For some reason it keeps popping up. Regardless, I’m uinformed by some people who read the original that the passage is more accurately rendered as, “he hardened his heart against the Lord.” I’m told it’s some kind of Hebrew grammar thing, but I don’t speak the language. [/QUOTE] Right – like I said, it says that in some places, and the Lord blah blah in others. I’ve never known what to make of it. So I don’t bother myself with it, most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/23 "2006-03-24T15:39:50Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Exactly. People are upset because they didn’t say _thank you_? Of course, if they don’t maintain niceties, then clearly they’re only one step away from terrorists themselves, those peace-loving bastards! I agree strict pacifism is a foolish idealogy. To condemn these people who are doing the best they can (in their eyes), and risking their lives in order to do so, because they didn’t say \*thank you \* in their statement (because we don’t know what they might have said to the actual troops when rescued) is equally foolish. [/QUOTE] More info: [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5298086](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5298086) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/24 "2006-03-24T15:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] The troops did their jobs for which they are paid. Saying thanks would have been polite but not necessary. Maintaining their opposition to the war is hardly the same as “shoveling shit on their heads.” You do NOT disrespect the troops by opposing the war. Decisions to go to war or not are political ones and it’s the troops’ job to do what they are told once those decisions are made. Whether the country is behind the war or not is unimportant. If your ego is so fragile that you must be thanked and honored and that every person in the nation must support every military action that the government takes, then I suggest you not get into the military. [/QUOTE] For maybe the first time ever, you and I are in complete agreement. > [@](#): > > Revenant Threshold]I agree strict pacifism is a foolish idealogy. It’s also a luxury only some can afford. It is purchased with the currency of physical force of others. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/25 "2006-03-24T15:45:01Z")
Tom Fox went to our meeting (Langley). He was a good, principled man. He went over there in good faith and did good work, as have many Friends before him. That the people who killed him did not recognize this tells me that they don’t care at all about religion, other than to use it as an excuse for their militant hatred. Duh, I know. It’s a pity, but I don’t think people should go over there to try to help anymore, for it appears to be lost on those animals. They’re too stupid to know a good man when they meet him, they’re too stupid to help themselves. Let them rot. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/26 "2006-03-24T15:58:17Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] The troops did their jobs for which they are paid. Saying thanks would have been polite but not necessary. Maintaining their opposition to the war is hardly the same as “shoveling shit on their heads.” You do NOT disrespect the troops by opposing the war. Decisions to go to war or not are political ones and it’s the troops’ job to do what they are told once those decisions are made. Whether the country is behind the war or not is unimportant. If your ego is so fragile that you must be thanked and honored and that every person in the nation must support every military action that the government takes, then I suggest you not get into the military. [/QUOTE] Of course it is true that the actions of our military members ought not be made conditional upon the thanks they get afterward. Nobody is suggesting that, so I suspect that you’re building a bit of a strawman here. All that has been said is that not acknowleging and thanking the soldiers that rescued you isn’t terribly nice. The group in question apparantly agrees, since they did come out with some thanks afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/27 "2006-03-24T16:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=Blackclaw] More info: [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5298086](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5298086) [/QUOTE] The more info is that British troops were also involved? Ok. That doesn’t change my position. [QUOTE=An Arky] Tom Fox went to our meeting (Langley). He was a good, principled man. He went over there in good faith and did good work, as have many Friends before him. That the people who killed him did not recognize this tells me that they don’t care at all about religion, other than to use it as an excuse for their militant hatred. Duh, I know. It’s a pity, but I don’t think people should go over there to try to help anymore, for it appears to be lost on those animals. They’re too stupid to know a good man when they meet him, they’re too stupid to help themselves. Let them rot. [/QUOTE] Yes, of course, because all Iraqis are obviously the same! Why didn’t I see this before! Well, if we’re judging an entire group by the actions of a few of their members, I condemn the U.S. troops for all being murdering, raping bastards, who torture their way through Iraq for fun. Or, you know, I don’t, because I recognise that that only happens in a minority of cases, and that you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/28 "2006-03-24T16:02:07Z")
> [@Toronto Globe and Mail](#): > > She also said the two are not yet ready to meet with the media to discuss their ordeal, but both Mr. Loney and Mr. Sooden did offer a message of thanks. > > “They did say one thing,” she said. “ **They are both deeply grateful to everyone who has worked for and prayed for their release**. > > “They really don’t have the words to describe their feelings of gratitude at being free again.” (emphasis added) [Full Story](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060324.whostag0324/BNStory/International/home) Sounds like a thankyou to me. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/29 "2006-03-24T16:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] The more info is that British troops were also involved? Ok. That doesn’t change my position. Yes, of course, because all Iraqis are obviously the same! Why didn’t I see this before! Well, if we’re judging an entire group by the actions of a few of their members, I condemn the U.S. troops for all being murdering, raping bastards, who torture their way through Iraq for fun. Or, you know, I don’t, because I recognise that that only happens in a minority of cases, and that you’re an idiot. [/QUOTE] I was referring to the insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/30 "2006-03-24T16:09:31Z")
Oh, I’ll take the thanks of the group as their thanks too. No problem there. When that thanks wasn’t immediately forthcoming from the group, though, it isn’t entirely untoward to ask them about it. And that is what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/31 "2006-03-24T16:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=An Arky] I was referring to the insurgents. [/QUOTE] Ah, then apologies. I’d still disagree with your characterization of them, but I did misread your post as talking about all Iraqis, so sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/32 "2006-03-24T16:11:08Z")
This thread is very revealing. How dare those Christians love their enemies and try to work for peace? Christianity isn’t about peace and love, it’s about hating fags and killing Arabs. Thanks for confirming my suspicions, people. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/33 "2006-03-24T16:19:33Z")
You don’t see many shades of gray, do you, **Diogenes**? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/34 "2006-03-24T16:23:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] When that thanks wasn’t immediately forthcoming from the group, though, it isn’t entirely untoward to ask them about it. And that is what happened. [/QUOTE] Keep in mind that Quakers have a **religiously-based** objection to the military. It doesn’t surprise me that it’d take them a bit of time to wrap their heads around the idea that they owed gratitude to the military. If a John Bircher got saved from a mugging by a prominent Communist, there might be a similar delay. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/35 "2006-03-24T16:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] **Little Plastic Ninja** , There’s an issue in some versions of the Bible. Sadly, that’s mostly a very bad translation. For some reason it keeps popping up. Regardless, I’m uinformed by some people who read the original that the passage is more accurately rendered as, “he hardened his heart against the Lord.” I’m told it’s some kind of Hebrew grammar thing, but I don’t speak the language. [/QUOTE] I think that’s unlikely. The introduction of errors when translating a bible is almost always deliberate. Given that, you have to look at it from a standpoint of which version comes out making the Lord look worse. Errors which make God (or Jesus) come off looking worse just aren’t likely to happen. Its far more logical to believe that deliberate mistranslations are made to enhance the attributes of the deity. There’s an excellent article on the deliberate distortions made in the various biblical translations by Hector Avalos in the [current issue of Free Inquiry](http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=index§ion=fi). That particular article isn’t, however, available on line yet. If the NRSV has a bad translation of Pharoah’s intentions, as you seem to be claiming, it is notable that versions as widely different as the KJV and the New Living Translation (which is very widely claimed to contain many inaccurate dan flattering errors) say significantly equivalent things about God making Pharoah so stubborn. As do many others. I think it therefore, fairly reasonble to believe God was responsible. You can directly compare many editions/translations/versions of the bible here: [www.biblegateway.com](http://www.biblegateway.com) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/36 "2006-03-24T16:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Keep in mind that Quakers have a **religiously-based** objection to the military. It doesn’t surprise me that it’d take them a bit of time to wrap their heads around the idea that they owed gratitude to the military. If a John Bircher got saved from a mugging by a prominent Communist, there might be a similar delay. [/QUOTE] First of all, the objection to war by Quakers is a bit more complex than absolute pacifism in most cases. I believe it is dependent on the personal beliefs of the person involved. It is a fact that many Quakers have served honorably in the armed forces, including Richard Nixon and Marine Major General and Medal of Honor awardee Smedley Butler. Describing Quakers as across-the-board pacifists dismisses the considerable effort most Quakers devote toward devoloping their own moral code and their beliefs about what constitutes a just society. Secondly, even absolute pacifism would not deny that soldiers often do good works, like in this case. It would simply say that those good works do not justify the military or a war. Most pacifists would have come to terms with this in their examination of their beliefs, and so should be expected to show gratitude where it is due, even when it is due to a soldier. Again, a moot point here, as they did show their gratitude. I’m simply saying wondering why they didn’t at the outset wasn’t out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/37 "2006-03-24T16:52:58Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] **Little Plastic Ninja** , There’s an issue in some versions of the Bible. Sadly, that’s mostly a very bad translation. For some reason it keeps popping up. Regardless, I’m uinformed by some people who read the original that the passage is more accurately rendered as, “he hardened his heart against the Lord.” I’m told it’s some kind of Hebrew grammar thing, but I don’t speak the language. [/QUOTE] That’s not true. Exodus 7:3 definitely renders “I” (God) as the subject of the verb (“I will harden” is all one word) both in the Hebrew and in the Greek LXX. There is no “against the lord” contained in the verse at all. “I” is doing the hardening and “I” is the lord. Here’s a [breakdown of the Hebrew](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1143218686-9024.html#3) and below that you can see the Greek rendering which contains the construction _Ego skleruno_ (“I make hard”). Here is Young’s Literal Translation: And I harden the heart of Pharaoh, and have multiplied My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/38 "2006-03-24T17:08:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I’m simply saying wondering why they didn’t at the outset wasn’t out of line. [/QUOTE] And what evidence do we have that they didn’t? The initial press release? That’s NOT the “outset”. I strongly suspect that the actual hostages did thank the actual soldiers who rescued them, in person, at the scene. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/39 "2006-03-24T17:18:27Z")
Don’t be dense. What was being pitted, and what people were wondering about, was the initial response from the organization. And that organization chose to issue an addendum to it after realizing the public response. [Here.](http://www.cpt.org/iraq/response/06-23-03statement.htm) Now, if the organization in question believes that their initial response wasn’t adequate, I’m not inclined to disagree. Don’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700/40 "2006-03-24T17:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] That’s a lot of "if"s. The absense of those "if"s is why pacifism is absurd and immoral. “They (pacifists) preach that if you see a man flogging a woman to death you must not hit him. I would much sooner let a leper come near a little boy than a man who preached such a thing.”- G. K. Chesterton [/QUOTE] Bullshit. An idiot and an asshole might preach such a thing. A pacifist would not. A strict pacifist might place his or herself in between the flogger and the victim, or perhaps attempt to physically restrain the abuser. A less-strict pacifist may believe that force is justified in particular cases of personal defense, and may use it if necessary (though the latter two options should be tried first). That quote and arguments like it are vicious and false straw man arguments. Disagree with pacifism if you like, but do it honestly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-peacemaker-teams-in-iraq-youre-pitted/349700.md?page=3)