# Christian propoganda author dies in car accident -- grieve, or celebrate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163 "2011-04-29T14:43:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/81 "2011-05-01T17:49:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe this has been discussed to the effect of a hundred times here and a billion times total through history And no one has ever been able to give an answer. Why do so many Christians think it’s sinful? They have no scriptural support for it. > [@](#): > > If this was true than fundamentalists and Muslims would be persecuted and bullied the most considering the Hollywood depictions of the former and paranoidacs rantings against the latter. Muslims do get harassed, and there is no social acceptance for bullying Christians as Christians _per se_. 80% of the population in the US is Christian. What you do see is some resistance to Christians who _themselves_ are hectoring bullies. > [@](#): > > You were constantly referring to ministers and so on. Because the specific person in the OP was a Christian minister, and because Christianity is by far the majority religion in the US. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/82 "2011-05-01T17:53:29Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Any who celebrates or takes any amount of delight in the death of someone else has serious issues. If we’d nailed bin Laden’s ass at Tora Bora like we should have, I’m sure much of the U.S. population would have spontaneously demonstrated that they had serious issues. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/83 "2011-05-01T17:55:48Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > God works in mysterious ways, but physics is pretty predictable: wear your seatbelt! I want this on a bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/84 "2011-05-01T18:01:01Z")
> [@Recliner](#): > > My personal take on this sort of thing: I don’t care who it is – I’m not going to celebrate somebody’s death. Quietly consider whether its ironic, or what have you? Ehh, perhaps. But, well…why laugh when the hearse goes by? If somebody is really despicable enough that the world is clearly better without him, then matters are too serious for _laughter_. That doesn’t preclude following a casket in the pale afternoon, and standing over a grave, to be sure that he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/85 "2011-05-01T18:01:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > [ > > Not necessarilly. Many Christians I’ve read argue it is homosexual _acts_ that are sinful and that two men can even live together provided their relationship is not sexual. Plus while I do agree some people are more disposed to homosexuality, many people are naturally disposed to certain things which we would consider bad, yet as we learn, we learn to stop or control that behaviour. In general, Christians need to stop imagining they are the arbiters of other people’s private lives. We _need to_ learn to stop those things which are bad, because they harm other people. We don’t necessarily need to stop those things that harm only ourselves, or those things that involve harm that is a figment of the imagination of some people. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/86 "2011-05-01T18:06:18Z")
> [@Recliner](#): > > Quietly consider whether its ironic, or what have you? Ehh, perhaps. No, an ironic death would be if he were killed in a gangland shooting, or something similar. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > If we’d nailed bin Laden’s ass at Tora Bora like we should have, I’m sure much of the U.S. population would have spontaneously demonstrated that they had serious issues. 🙂 That’s basically my point. While it may seem to be a stretch to equate terrorism with Christian evangelicalism, one cannot deny that Christians are responsible for far more death, torture, and genocide than any other religion can ever hope to achieve. Rev. Wilkerson may not have been directly responsible for molesting Catholic altar boys or infecting primitive nations with syphilis, but he did represent the monolithic institutions who brazenly commit such acts based on divine authority. After all, nobody’s complaining about the recent death of Qaddafi’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/87 "2011-05-01T18:18:46Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > one cannot deny that Christians are responsible for far more death, torture, and genocide than any other religion can ever hope to achieve. [“One cannot deny”](http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Logical_Fallacies_by_Todangst#Appeal_to_Beliefs_-_.22Everybody_Knows_That.21.22)? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/88 "2011-05-01T18:35:17Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > While it may seem to be a stretch to equate terrorism with Christian evangelicalism, one cannot deny that Christians are responsible for far more death, torture, and genocide than any other religion can ever hope to achieve. As evil as Christianity is, for all we know in the year 5000 Reform Transcendental Gnosticism will be responsible for the deaths of 50 billion people in the Third Interplanetary Crusade. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/89 "2011-05-01T19:41:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Such as Dr. George Tiller? :rolleyes: He wasn’t a murderer. There’s nothing wrong with abortion ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/90 "2011-05-01T19:45:37Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > … > So…how should wise people react to this apparent tragedy? Should we grieve because he’s only human, or should we be thankful that the number of dangerous Christian nutjobs in this world has been reduced by one? Would the decision be any easier if he were Hindu (ref. [Sathya Sai Baba](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=605941)), Buddhist, Muslim, New Age, or even Mormon? > > Discuss. Meh. I’m going to treat it with apathy and indifference. That seems a fitting epitaph for him. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/91 "2011-05-01T19:55:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s been thoroughly discredited by Christian bigots who used it to justify their treatment of homosexuals. Exactly. They just don’t have the guts to say it outright and take ownership of it. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/92 "2011-05-01T20:06:11Z")
In my evangelical days of teenhood, I read TC & TS as well as listening to Mike Warnke. I realized even then that Warnke’s comedy routine and 'Satan Seller ’ didn’t add up - names, ages, etc and wasn’t surprised when his story was blown. I never got that w/ the pastor who died this week; I learned some valuable things from his book about doing things for others and didn’t know about his homophobic views until this thread. I’m sorry for his family’s loss and I can only hope he’s in a place where he sees the error of the hate he spread on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/93 "2011-05-02T00:15:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And no one has ever been able to give an answer. > > Why do so many Christians think it’s sinful? They have no scriptural support for it . The introduction to Romans seems to contradict this since there is mention among other things of men “who are full of lust for one another” > [@](#): > > Muslims do get harassed, and there is no social acceptance for bullying Christians as Christians _per se_. 80% of the population in the US is Christian. What you do see is some resistance to Christians who _themselves_ are hectoring bullies. Not all Christians get “bullied” obviously, but hellfire and brimstone people for instance tend to get mocked even by their fellow Christians. > [@Mangetout](#): > > In general, Christians need to stop imagining they are the arbiters of other people’s private lives. > > We _need to_ learn to stop those things which are bad, because they harm other people. We don’t necessarily need to stop those things that harm only ourselves, or those things that involve harm that is a figment of the imagination of some people. I don’t believe forcing people via the government to change their private lives. However this is persuasion by private citizens not coercion by the Morality Police. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/94 "2011-05-02T00:20:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I don’t believe forcing people via the government to change their private lives. However this is persuasion by private citizens not coercion by the Morality Police. In this case, what’s the difference? What exactly is wrong with homosexuality? (BEYOND what the Bible says, **Qin**. If that’s the only reason you can come up with, then you need to come up with something else. And if so, WHY does the Bible say it’s wrong?) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/95 "2011-05-02T00:26:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If the intent is to commit homosexual acts, it is the comprable to the act. Only if there is belief in the wrongness of the act. I think we actually argued about this subject in general a while back - if intent and knowledge of wrongness are not there, how can we hold someone to account? I mean, on the other side of things, if the _act_, the physical motions, are all that matters, why is rape a crime, a sin? > [@](#): > > But I did not mean lust but love, and love can be non-sexual. Right. And it can be sexual. You’re denying that aspect of love to homosexuals (and bisexuals). Not only may these acts of love lack the goodness that is (i’m under the impression from your posts) almost inherent in other forms of love, it is a sin. It’s a very strange concept to me - it’s akin to saying that, giving money to a needy person is a good and virtuous thing. But giving money to a needy person of the _same sex_ is a sinful act. Why does the gender of the person concerned matter? What’s so terrible about the mere physical act that it overrules the good aspect of that form of sharing love? Edit: I note that you point out the differences between lust and love to me, yet in your response to **Diogenes** , you conflate the two to make your point when you use Romans. It doesn’t seem reasonable to both say that lust and love are two seperate things, even when talking about sex, yet then say that a pronouncement against lust is a pronouncement against all sex. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/96 "2011-05-02T00:27:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I don’t believe forcing people via the government to change their private lives. However this is persuasion by private citizens not coercion by the Morality Police. Noted (although others do try to direct legislation), but why is it even acceptable for person A to privately persuade person B to change a behaviour _that does not adversely impact person A (or anyone else)_? Also, what is the intended outcome of trying to influence behaviours? Most of Christianity holds that _no amount of right behaviour_ is enough to make a person righteous. By persuading homosexual people to stop being homosexual, you’re not making saints - you’re just making miserable sinners. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/97 "2011-05-02T00:30:00Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Mangetout](#): > > Noted (although others do try to direct legislation), but why is it even acceptable for person A to privately persuade person B to change a behaviour _that does not adversely impact person A (or anyone else)_? For moral reasons. For instance someone commiting adultery on his or her spouse does not affect his acquaintance, yet if asked whether that was immoral would you not say it was. > [@](#): > > Also, what is the intended outcome of trying to influence behaviours? Most of Christianity holds that _no amount of right behaviour_ is enough to make a person righteous. By persuading homosexual people to stop being homosexual, you’re not making saints - you’re just making miserable sinners. Obviously talk of morality must be coupled with the Gospel but God wants Christians to be moral, thus if they’re Christian they will try to act morally. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/98 "2011-05-02T00:33:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Obviously talk of morality must be coupled with the Gospel but God wants Christians to be moral, thus if they’re Christian they will try to act morally. What do you mean by “moral”? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/99 "2011-05-02T00:36:12Z")
[quote=“Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi, post:97, topic:580163”] > [@](#): > > For moral reasons. For instance someone commiting adultery on his or her spouse does not affect his acquaintance, yet if asked whether that was immoral would you not say it was. This is an example of a behaviour with likely adverse outcomes for an innocent or non-consenting party. Not really an appropriate analogy, I feel. > [@](#): > > Obviously talk of morality must be coupled with the Gospel but God wants Christians to be moral, thus if they’re Christian they will try to act morally. Whose job is it to persuade Christians to act morally? Yours or God’s? What does any of that have to do with persuading non-Christians to act morally. Is ‘morally’ even the appropriate term here? If nobody is harmed by an action, is it immoral? How? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163/100 "2011-05-02T00:47:55Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Mangetout](#): > > > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > > This is an example of a behaviour with likely adverse outcomes for an innocent or non-consenting party. Not really an appropriate analogy, I feel. > > > > Whose job is it to persuade Christians to act morally? Yours or God’s? What does any of that have to do with persuading non-Christians to act morally. > > Christians would simply point out what God has said. > > > [@](#): > > > > Is ‘morally’ even the appropriate term here? If nobody is harmed by an action, is it immoral? How? Because it is condemned by God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-propoganda-author-dies-in-car-accident-grieve-or-celebrate/580163.md?page=6)