# Christian salvation theology; why so complicated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720 "2007-02-26T14:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/121 "2007-03-08T14:17:53Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] It is within the power of God to do so, but the judgment has been made already. God is the ultimate judge, there is no appeal because his judgment is always correct and just. [/QUOTE] The problem is the judgment you describe may not be God’s judgment but rather man’s imperfect interpretation concerning God’s will. Man certainly isn’t always correct and just. Thats what I said before, if the doctrine doesn’t seem to make sense and seems unjust then it’s time for a serious reconsideration of the correctness of the doctrine. > [@](#): > > Indwelling of the Spirit of God, a ‘force’ of sorts that allows you to operate as a extension of the Son and Father when called upon, this is what born again is, you are a new ‘person’ at that time, you are now wheat that bears fruit (or seeds or whatever it bears). I don’t accept that I am a weed, I am not a demon, and I’m not sure if a person can be a weed - but I leave open the possibility. As for being a unfruitful wheat, a person can be deceived by following a false Christ and accepting a false spirit. We are told to look out for that, which I have been and will continue to do. It is possible that I have been deceived, yes as I have been in the past, it’s something easy to do, we are warned to constantly be on guard aganst this very issue. > [@](#): > > Again it’s on personal level, you know when the living God is indwelling you, no it doesn’t mean that you won’t sin, but you try not to because you know it hurts God, every sin you commit goes against another person - a person who you love very much and that loves you. By accepting this gift (transfer of sins) you realize that for every sin you do a innocent man suffers for it. Are you saying God expects that we will continue to sin but it’s okay as long as we have accepted Christ? Evidently if you accept Jesus as savior you might commit a sin, like lust or selfishness, or lying, and God will tolerate that because of Jesus, but fi you commit those very same sins without accepting Jesus you’re bound for hell. Does that seem just to you? It even appears that a born again Christian might sin _more_ than say a devout Buddhist or someone in Baha’i who consider Jesus a great spiritual teacher rather than savior, but still be rewarded with heaven , while those who sinned less get hell. Does that seem just to you? > [@](#): > > Everything comes from the Father, including love in any form from anyone. So hatred, greed, and envy all come from the Father? ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/122 "2007-03-08T15:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] I do have permission to repost the following, which is a sermon by an Episcopal Church bishop directly related to what **kanicbird** and **cosmosdan** have been discussing above, and which I think is very relevant to the topic at hand: [/quote] I actually take quite a few issues with your bishop’s sermon, both from a common sense basis and also scripturally, but to save time I’m just going to address the bible quote you posted. > [@](#): > > \*Matt 13:24 (NRSV) He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. By enemy am I to assume Jesus is talking about Satan? While I think it is absolutely ridiculous for Jesus to believe in such mythical beings, I really have to ask where he gets off slandering Satan? I mean god (we are to assume this means Jesus himself) smote, or had smote people right and left, including babies and children just because they did not worship him. Heck, according to the OT (which Jesus endorsed) he even flooded the planet killing, not only people, but helpless animals by the billions. And yet Jesus slanders Satan by referring to him as the enemy? What did Satan do? Reveal in genesis that god was a liar and gave humans the knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about that? Satan killed a handful of people in the book of Job but only with Jesus/god’s permission. Compare that to the millions or billions that god has killed or intends to torture and Satan really doesn’t come off looking that bad. > [@](#): > > "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!\* Here the “god” you worship makes it quite clear that he is blaming the ills of man on Satan, yet in Isaiah 45:7 god admits that he created evil. Here your god also makes it clear that anyone that doesn’t give him enough adulation will be gathered up by Jesus and his angels bound and thrown into a fire, with what sure sounds like conscious suffering. There is no indication that those who don’t follow Jesus will voluntarily go to a place of quiet isolation after death, as many liberal Christians like to believe, but rather they are bound and cast into hell quite unwillingly. Now you and your bishop can read this and tell yarns about not judging the hearts of others, but I can assure you that I and a good many others are not followers of your god, and we can read very clearly what Jesus thinks of us. I don’t think I have called Jesus a cunt in a while, but this is certainly a good example of his cunt like behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/123 "2007-03-08T16:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] There is no indication that those who don’t follow Jesus will voluntarily go to a place of quiet isolation after death, as many liberal Christians like to believe, but rather they are bound and cast into hell quite unwillingly. [/QUOTE] Now, I wonder - how about the Eastern Orthodox concept that all Creation will be enveloped in the Presence of God/Jesus, which will be experienced joyfully by those who respond to Them in adoration but hatefully by those who persist in hatred towards Them? Does that sound fair? If as you pass this life, you enter an Eternity in which you find that Yahweh/Jesus is/are indeed God, what do you think should fairly become of you? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/124 "2007-03-08T17:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I don’t know why you would say this, Satan is allowed to operate within the bounds that God has set forth - if Satan follows the rules set forth why should God stop him? It is within the power of God to do so, but the judgment has been made already. God is the ultimate judge, there is no appeal because his judgment is always correct and just. [/QUOTE] For the first, it is because you said: > [@kanicbird](#): > > Again this is my understanding, the weeds are of Satan and can’t be saved. The wheat is what God has sown, but not all the wheat is fit for harvest, God will separate the wheat from the husk. And for that matter some of the wheat will land in rocky soil, on the path, ect. and never develop. Now, in response to **Revenant Threshold** you say God can save anyone, but chooses not to. You say the decision is made, but the decision has clearly been made while a person is still living - thus the person, who has no free will, is guiltless of any sins. How could I freely choose to sin if my sin is written before I was born? If all is preordained, in a universe created and ordered by God, then only God can be responsible. So I retract my question about Satan being more powerful than God, and replace it with a question about why you think God is more evil than Satan. A being without free will can do evil, but he cannot be evil. A program cannot be evil, only the programmer. Methinks your theology needs some time in the shop. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/125 "2007-03-08T17:57:11Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Now, I wonder - how about the Eastern Orthodox concept that all Creation will be enveloped in the Presence of God/Jesus, which will be experienced joyfully by those who respond to Them in adoration but hatefully by those who persist in hatred towards Them? Does that sound fair? [/quote] Nope. > [@](#): > > If as you pass this life, you enter an Eternity in which you find that Yahweh/Jesus is/are indeed God, what do you think should fairly become of you? I don’t know. It seems we value freedom and happiness in life, so in an afterlife why not the same. We could be free to do whatever we want. Rattle chains in attics, haunt old houses, talk to Jon Edward, reincarnate ourselves, play sports with other ghosts, bang hottie ghosts, etc. I can think of any number of things that I would prefer over eternal worship, torment, or death. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/126 "2007-03-08T18:00:31Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Now, I wonder - how about the Eastern Orthodox concept that all Creation will be enveloped in the Presence of God/Jesus, which will be experienced joyfully by those who respond to Them in adoration but hatefully by those who persist in hatred towards Them? Does that sound fair? If as you pass this life, you enter an Eternity in which you find that Yahweh/Jesus is/are indeed God, what do you think should fairly become of you? [/QUOTE] My conception of a just god would sentence anyone who thought he could slaughter people in the flood to hell. I don’t see loving a monster as a good thing. He take much more kindly to skeptics, explaining, somehow, how he let all that crap get in the Bible. A God who invented logic and evidence would certainly understand why logical people find no reason to believe given the lack of evidence and logic in religious writings. How about those who love God but reject Jesus? Is that hating God also? Any worthy god would be like the one in the series of sketches from about 1920 collected in _Heavenly Discourses._ That God invited Robert Ingersoll into heaven as an honored guest, and sent Billy Sunday to monkey heaven. That didn’t work out, since the monkeys came to God and complained that Billy Sunday was too loud for them. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/127 "2007-03-09T00:32:22Z")
A general sorry, I really don’t have that much time for the dope lately, and can only selectively post: [QUOTE=cosmosdan] Are you saying God expects that we will continue to sin but it’s okay as long as we have accepted Christ? Evidently if you accept Jesus as savior you might commit a sin, like lust or selfishness, or lying, and God will tolerate that because of Jesus, but fi you commit those very same sins without accepting Jesus you’re bound for hell. Does that seem just to you? [/QUOTE] What is just is we are all condemned, we all sin. It is not just that anyone of us is saved at all. > [@](#): > > It even appears that a born again Christian might sin more than say a devout Buddhist or someone in Baha’i who consider Jesus a great spiritual teacher rather than savior, but still be rewarded with heaven , while those who sinned less get hell. Does that seem just to you? Unless that Buddhist has never committed a sin in his life he has no chance unless he accepts the gift of Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father. [QUOTE=Voyager] Now, in response to Revenant Threshold you say God can save anyone, but chooses not to. You say the decision is made, [/quote] The decision has been made for Satan, the fallen angels and demons. Any person (human) who is in Satan’s kingdom at the end (death) will also suffer this fate. > [@](#): > > but the decision has clearly been made while a person is still living - thus the person, who has no free will, is guiltless of any sins. How could I freely choose to sin if my sin is written before I was born? Again persons can switch kingdoms Satan’s or Gods. So yes you were born into Satan’s kingdom, but you don’t have to stay there - but then again you could, it’s your choice and is your free will > [@](#): > > If all is preordained, in a universe created and ordered by God, then only God can be responsible. So I retract my question about Satan being more powerful than God, and replace it with a question about why you think God is more evil than Satan. A being without free will can do evil, but he cannot be evil. A program cannot be evil, only the programmer. > . I suppose you also blame the gun manufactures for the illegal use of their product also. Just because it’s a option that God created does not mean it is right to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/128 "2007-03-09T01:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The decision has been made for Satan, the fallen angels and demons. Any person (human) who is in Satan’s kingdom at the end (death) will also suffer this fate. Again persons can switch kingdoms Satan’s or Gods. So yes you were born into Satan’s kingdom, but you don’t have to stay there - but then again you could, it’s your choice and is your free will I suppose you also blame the gun manufactures for the illegal use of their product also. Just because it’s a option that God created does not mean it is right to use it. [/QUOTE] So, weeds can become wheat. I’m having trouble keeping up. However, if Satan somehow convinces someone to go into his kingdom (assuming this can happen,) he is only doing so because God programmed him to do so. If Satan dangles the promise of riches in front of someone to convince them to sin, it is actually God doing this. Satan is God’s pawn. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/129 "2007-03-09T11:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] How about those who love God but reject Jesus? Is that hating God also? [/QUOTE] Not at all. I do believe it’s erroneous. I do believe that sincere God-worshippers who for some reason can’t accept Jesus will go into the Afterlife/Resurrection to realize that Jesus shares in the Deity. At that time, the bulk of them will rejoice in that realization & embrace JC gladly as Lord. Anyone repulsed by that realization will not be allowed to escape it, so they will either have to become reconciled to JC or exist in an Eternity in which that Central fact is an affront to them. They might choose to opt-out of existence, if God decides to be so merciful. [QUOTE=Voyager] Any worthy god would be like the one in the series of sketches from about 1920 collected in _Heavenly Discourses._ That God invited Robert Ingersoll into heaven as an honored guest, and sent Billy Sunday to monkey heaven. That didn’t work out, since the monkeys came to God and complained that Billy Sunday was too loud for them. [/QUOTE] That’s cute- Mencken? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/130 "2007-03-09T11:18:27Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] I don’t know. It seems we value freedom and happiness in life, so in an afterlife why not the same. We could be free to do whatever we want. Rattle chains in attics, haunt old houses, talk to Jon Edward, reincarnate ourselves, play sports with other ghosts, bang hottie ghosts, etc. I can think of any number of things that I would prefer over eternal worship, torment, or death. [/QUOTE] Well, in the Afterlife you posit, if God/Jesus were part of it, They would still be an ignorable part of it. In the Afterlife I posit, God/Jesus will be the Central fact, undeniable and all-pervading, so that the only choice will do to joyously surrender to God/Jesus or to be continually affonted by the unavoidable Divine Presence. Acting as if They are anything but the Ground of Being will not be possible. If I am right about the Afterlife, it’s not a question of happiness & freedom, but a matter of responding to the unescapable fact of existence- that Yahweh made it all & Jesus is Lord of it all. That would be like trying to live here & now while resisting and resenting air, food & water. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/131 "2007-03-09T11:26:51Z")
It’s painfully obvious that kanicbird & I, while sharing the same faith in God/Christ, have very different concepts of what salvation entails, especially regarding the choice being limited to this earthly life. I concede that the “turn or burn” message may well be true for many in this life IF they have had real opportunity to entrust themselves to Yahweh/Jesus. However, it’s undeniable that for multitudes, the opportunity has never existed OR has been badly mangled so as to be unacceptable. Which is why I also believe the Bible allows for some type of opportunity either in the Afterlife (a la C.S. Lewis) or the Resurrection (a la Charles Taze Rusell). ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/132 "2007-03-09T11:37:21Z")
This debate seems to come down to what God said,no one knows that God even said anything. We take the word of some human that God said it. I could say God told me something and you could or would believe me, or not. We humans like to blame or credit God for things we have said or say ourselves. We believe what we find helps ourselves. What ever we believe, read comes from some human. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/133 "2007-03-09T12:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] So, weeds can become wheat. I’m having trouble keeping up. [/QUOTE] No weeds are weeds, they are of Satan, anything born of Satan is condemned along with him. Again I don’t know if any humans are weeds, I believe weeds include but may not be limited to demons. > [@](#): > > if Satan somehow convinces someone to go into his kingdom (assuming this can happen,) This would assume that the person was in God’s kingdom at first, then decided to switch, which is a very bad place to be, much worse then staying in Satan’s kingdom the whole time. > [@](#): > > he is only doing so because God programmed him to do so. Satan is given a lot of free reign within the boundaries that God has set forth. He may not have the ability to redeem himself but acts under his own will till his defeat. > [@](#): > > If Satan dangles the promise of riches in front of someone to convince them to sin, it is actually God doing this. See above - God allows free will of his creations, now I’m sorry that our science can’t reproduce in computers free will, but just because science can’t prove it can exist does not mean that science proves it doesn’t exist. This is the jump in logic you are trying to make and the flaw in your argument. [QUOTE=FrierTed] t’s painfully obvious that kanicbird & I, while sharing the same faith in God/Christ, have very different concepts of what salvation entails, especially regarding the choice being limited to this earthly life. [/quote] I don’t like the idea of eternal torment and would rather like to think I misunderstand it, but when I go to the scripture, again and again it confirms it is true and the belief that you get a chance after you die or some other way to avoid it all seem to be false. > [@](#): > > I concede that the “turn or burn” message may well be true for many in this life IF they have had real opportunity to entrust themselves to Yahweh/Jesus. However, it’s undeniable that for multitudes, the opportunity has never existed OR has been badly mangled so as to be unacceptable. As for the people who have not had a good chance of knowing God, there is evidence that those people will not be judged as harshly. Jesus said that the towns who reject him will suffer worse judgment then Sodom, for they have seen me, and what is written about Judas - ‘it would be better if that man was never born’ - this seems like the harshest judgment ever placed on a person. It would also appear that nonexistence is worse then eternal torment except for this case, though I find that hard to understand. Besides eternal torment or bliss there may be a 3rd option, which I really don’t know what it is, but you will be chewed up and spit out - may be non-existance and for those who are fence sitters during the end times. But I think it’s more likely that you will be beat up and be forced to chose. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/134 "2007-03-09T14:17:23Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] What is just is we are all condemned, we all sin. It is not just that anyone of us is saved at all. [/QUOTE] That is not an answer to the direct question I asked. Does God love all mankind equally? Does he want all mankind to be saved? 1Tim 2 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. If God designed a way for all people to be saved then wouldn’t it be just for all. > [@](#): > > Unless that Buddhist has never committed a sin in his life he has no chance unless he accepts the gift of Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father. Again, you didn’t actually answer the question I asked you simply restated your belief. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? What was the point of that teaching. In Matt 25:31-46 there’s the parable of the sheep and goats. The sheep ask “Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you etc.” Would born again Christians need to ask that or would they already know? If a Buddhist or any non Christian had done these things Jesus described would they receive eternal life as Jesus says? > [@](#): > > Matt 7: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. > > 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Jesus again stresses that our deeds reflect the true spirit within and simply acknowledging him as Lord and doing things in his name is not enough. Acts of love and compassion are the good fruit he speaks of. Those acts can only come from that loving spirit regardless of the doctrinal details of the person doing them. I don’t think Jesus is hung up on being called savior rather than teacher, philosopher, or prophet, if the individual has a sincere heart and is bearing the right fruit. It seems to be much of Christianity that has that particular hang up and IMHO by clinging to it they are missing an important part of what Jesus taught. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/135 "2007-03-09T14:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The relationship between God and us happens at a personal level, which it appears you never had, or if you did at one time have rejected it. If/when God wants to open that channel up He will call you, you can’t fake faith. [/QUOTE] It’s pretty obvious, though, that faith can fake us. Assorted faith-based belief systems are in diametric opposition and therefore cannot all be right. If one of them is wrong it’s likely they are all wrong. The existence of so many opposing beliefs demonstrates that faith is not a mechansism to arrive at what is true, regardless of whether or not the individual “feels” it is true because they have (or are “given”) faith. The longstanding struggle between Calvinist pre-destination and salvation through the exercise of free will does not have its resolution in one side or the other being right, but in both sides being completely wrong, along with other faith-based precepts. Christian salvation theology is complicated because it is essentially an effort to reconcile contradictory premises. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/136 "2007-03-09T15:11:59Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Well, in the Afterlife you posit, if God/Jesus were part of it, They would still be an ignorable part of it. [/quote] Which is good, because god and Jesus are a couple of self aggrandizing assholes. > [@](#): > > In the Afterlife I posit, God/Jesus will be the Central fact, undeniable and all-pervading, so that the only choice will do to joyously surrender to God/Jesus or to be continually affonted by the unavoidable Divine Presence. Yeah, and that would suck. > [@](#): > > If I am right about the Afterlife… It is fortunate that the chances of you being right about the afterlife are no more likely than you being right about any other physically impossible fictional stories coming true. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/137 "2007-03-09T16:01:11Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Well, in the Afterlife you posit, if God/Jesus were part of it, They would still be an ignorable part of it. In the Afterlife I posit, God/Jesus will be the Central fact, undeniable and all-pervading, so that the only choice will do to joyously surrender to God/Jesus or to be continually affonted by the unavoidable Divine Presence. Acting as if They are anything but the Ground of Being will not be possible. If I am right about the Afterlife, it’s not a question of happiness & freedom, but a matter of responding to the unescapable fact of existence- that Yahweh made it all & Jesus is Lord of it all. That would be like trying to live here & now while resisting and resenting air, food & water. [/QUOTE] If that were the plan and if God were omniscient and omnipotent, he would have started there–no pre-Afterlife; just create ex nihilo what you term the Afterlife. No need for a lot of indignities and pain to get to the point where the “only choice” is joyous surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/138 "2007-03-09T16:06:00Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Which is why I also believe the Bible allows for some type of opportunity either in the Afterlife (a la C.S. Lewis) or the Resurrection (a la Charles Taze Rusell). You want to give a cite of where the bible says this, or are you just making it up as you go along? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/139 "2007-03-09T19:03:36Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] That’s cute- Mencken? [/QUOTE] Nope - Charles Eskine Scott Wood. [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Discourse) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720/140 "2007-03-09T20:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] No weeds are weeds, they are of Satan, anything born of Satan is condemned along with him. Again I don’t know if any humans are weeds, I believe weeds include but may not be limited to demons. [/quote] Surely humans may be weeds, since I can’t imagine Jesus addressing the problem of demon salvation! > [@](#): > > This would assume that the person was in God’s kingdom at first, then decided to switch, which is a very bad place to be, much worse then staying in Satan’s kingdom the whole time. Are humans born into God’s kingdom or Satan’s? I’d imagine you’d say Satan’s, from us being natural sinners, and from the fact that we must take action to be saved. Which brings us back to the unjustness of starting out in the wrong place, and I don’t accept the supposed actions of the mythical Adam and Eve as justification for this. > [@](#): > > See above - God allows free will of his creations, now I’m sorry that our science can’t reproduce in computers free will, but just because science can’t prove it can exist does not mean that science proves it doesn’t exist. This is the jump in logic you are trying to make and the flaw in your argument. I’m speaking of Satan’s free will, not human free will. I happen to agree that humans do have free will under certain definitions. If Satan is forced to be evil, he can hardly be faulted for doing the best at it as possible, can he? > [@](#): > > I don’t like the idea of eternal torment and would rather like to think I misunderstand it, but when I go to the scripture, again and again it confirms it is true and the belief that you get a chance after you die or some other way to avoid it all seem to be false. I’ve seen other people offer Ted’s idea, one allowing a last choice just before true death. This would seem to be an ethical solution to the problem of God not providing enough information to make an informed choice (and actually providing us information that argues against the right choice in your book.) I don’t know if there is Biblical justification for it, but a God allowing this is a much better God than the one who says that he created the world to make the Bible look like so much bullshit, so tough on you for believing the evidence and not the Bible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-salvation-theology-why-so-complicated/393720.md?page=8)