Christian salvation theology; why so complicated?

It is not contradictory at all, but can be confusing, let me try again:

God already has condemned the world - through the judgment of it’s leader (Satan), people of the world - that is under the leadership of Satan are condemned along with it - the decision is made already, it is the will of the Father, making exceptions would contradict His will and won’t happen - Satan’s fate is already written (see Revelation).

God has offered us the opportunity if we want, to ‘transcend’ the world - to switch leaders, from Satan to Jesus, through faith in Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit, and live in the Kingdom of God with Christ as the leader, not the world with Satan as leader.

Leader of the world? I never voted for Satan, but then again I never voted for Bush either. How did Satan become leader of the world? Maybe god made us so we had to sin, which automatically made us subject to Satan? So we got sold out?

But let’s consider Satan. He isn’t an atheist - he knows god exists, right? He also knows god’s power. He presumably can read, so he know what is going to happen to him, and he knows it must come true. (I assume that Satan believes in an inerrant Bible like his fundamentalist buddies.) So why doesn’t he give up? Well, I suspect it is because he doesn’t have free will, not being a human. He is therefore programmed and destined to revolt like it says in Revelations, and to lose. So who programmed him? God, of course. He got set up.

Poor devil I have sympathy for him.

I breathlessly await your next cogent refutation of this issue, which will no doubt consist of “neener, neener, you hate god.”

The relationship between God and us happens at a personal level, which it appears you never had, or if you did at one time have rejected it. If/when God wants to open that channel up He will call you, you can’t fake faith.

He also taught that we will become children of God, basically part of God, as He is God (I am the Vine and you are the branches), to be God, one with Jesus, who is one with the Father, you can’t have sin. As for him taking on our sins:

, Were you registered to vote before 4000BC? This things have long terms.

We bought into Satan’s world for a piece of fruit, and they say the Indians got a bad deal when they sold Manhattan Island for $20 worth of beads.

Yes, even demons know there is a God:

.

What’s to give up, he lost already, to give up you have to still have options, for Satan is it already game over, his chance of giving up is over, and he is out of quarters.

I figure if the channel didn’t open after fasting for 24 hours on Yom Kippur, and being in temple the whole day, it never will. But then I was raised Jewish, and I was never taught to check my brain at the door of the shul. Some Christians and others (not all, so the usual gang doesn’t have to start yelling) seem to be taught exactly that.

So, he is either incredibly stupid, and so not much of a threat, or he does not have free will, and my point (which you didn’t respond to) holds.

Hang on a moment. You mean to say that God may not offer salvation to everyone? He picks and chooses?

Not a good example actually. In context this verse is about the ongoing debate in that day about whether Christ’s teachings were an extension of Judaism for the Jews, or was it for the Gentiles as well. The Law being spoken of is old Jewish law versus faith in Christ. He is explaining that through faith the gentiles are equal children of God.

14; He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

These verses are to a very specific audience and culture but we can understand the thrust of it. It isn’t an adherence to any set of rules but by faith in Christ {his example} we do as he did. Surrender to the Holy Spirit that leads us to all truth and transforms a superficial following of the rules into behavior born of real love from within.

In post 33 I described my own objections to traditional Christian doctrine and why I believe it just doesn’t make sense.

Here’s the thing I question. The traditional view seems to be.

If we believe in Jesus as savior and invite him into our hearts and receive the Holy Spirit then we are “saved” and the blood of Jesus washes away our sins. As you say, he takes our sins upon himself. Is that about right?
So what happens next. People who accept Jesus still aren’t perfect and still continue to sin right? Are all their sins forgiven because they have accepted Jesus and received the Holy Spirit? If thats the case can they do anything they want and it’s forgiven? Well, no because if they lead selfish lives then obviously the Holy Spirit isn’t guiding them and isn’t really in their hearts. How do we know their lives are guided by the Holy Spirit? By their {say it with me} actions. Isn’t that what Jesus teaches? So exactly how much sin will God tolerate from born again Christians before they forfeit their saved status?
If you can live a life of sin and then give your heart to Jesus just before you die and wind up in heaven, then is the opposite also true? If you live a life of service and sacrifice and devotion to God, and then sin just before you die, do you go to hell?
Is God the source of all love? So folks like Gandhi and others who lived a life devoted to the truth and loving service to others but didn’t quite view Jesus as God’s blood sacrifice for our sins are sent to hell? Where did their loving service come from then if not from the spirit of God?

When traditional Christianity can answer these questions with any kind of rational thoughts that aren’t just desperate justifications to support tradition over truth, then I’ll…eat my hat.
These answers do NOT qualify.

1.“Well you just have to have faith.” {translates into , stop thinking for yourself and believe what we tell you}

2.“God’s ways are not mans ways, so what seems right to you isn’t the same as whats right according to God.”

Another irrational nonsense justification. If I in my less than perfect concept of justice can clearly see that these doctrines are utterly unjust, then how can I attribute them to God in whom there must be perfect justice. If a doctrine violates the very essence of the qualities we attribute to God , love, truth, mercy, just, etc. then rather than twist semantics and reason to make the doctrine appear to fit, perhaps we should QUESTION, the doctrine.

3.Well, my friend who has studied the Bible for years, or, millions of Christians have taught and passed down this doctrine so who are you to question it?

Well I’m the guy who has my own relationship with God and I’m not about to hand over the responsibility of my own life and soul to someone else. The truth is that millions of people who have studied the Bible for years don’t all agree on what it means. The truth is that if it wasn’t for people having the courage to question tradition and what the leading Christian authorities said, then many denominations today wouldn’t exist. Let’s take all protestant {from protest}religions just as a minor example. My feeling is that God wants me to put my relationship with him above my relationship with my brothers and sisters, my Pastor , my congregation, etc. etc. Religious history is filled with courageous people who had the courage to claim their right to worship according to their conscience rather than someone else’s. So, pointing to Christian tradition as authoritative has zero weight with me.
and…hey…haven’t I ranted? I’m done now.

Sadly true. I’m going to a Baha’i celebration this Saturday. Never been but it should be interesting. They are very into the Unity of all religions thing.

Hey, Your response gave me an idea for a thread.
Atheism as a spiritual path? Hmmmmmmmmmm I’ll think on it.

As far as I understand it this is correct, God is just allowing time to play out so all the ‘wheat’ has a chance to develop - I have condensed and the parable below with my additions in ( ) for clarity:

Thanks, kanicbird. If i’m getting the message of the parable correct, it is that not all men can be saved; that those who can be saved (the “wheat”) and those that will not are decided from the very beginning. There is no way that the wheat can not be saved, and no way that the weeds can be. Is this a correct understanding of your views?

Just as a followup - are either the wheat or weeds knowledgable about their status (you’ve pegged Voyager as a weed, it seems)? Is it possible that a weed could come to follow and believer in Christianity, yet be rejected by him upstairs because they are a weed?

cosmosdan thanks for pointing out that wasn’t the best example, that passage can very well be taken as what you loose on earth is loose in heaven and what you bind on earth is bound in heaven.

Yes

Well usually 2 things:

1 - God’s spirit is sent to guide you to make you like Jesus, and become one with Him, which is already one with the Father.
2 - Satan attacks and disrupts this process, trying to confuse you so that you will not do what God wants you to do. Though you are saved, you may not be effective in your service to God.

My understanding is that there are 2 ways to ‘void’ your salvation, but I really don’t know what they actually are. The first way is the unpardonable sin - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. The second way is to accept Jesus as lord and savior, then renounce Him - basically choosing Satan as your King. But really I am not really up on this.

No, God (the Father) is the source of all! (Ok that includes love)

Not for me to judge. If Gandhi and others accepted Jesus then God will accept them, if not they are under Satan.

A lot of new age religion teaches love, even projecting love to into the universe, people can love false gods, and for that matter Satan. God even warned about loving money, and warned the church of Ephessus that they have lost their first love (love of God) - so get it back quickly or you will face immediate judgment.

Again this is my understanding, the weeds are of Satan and can’t be saved. The wheat is what God has sown, but not all the wheat is fit for harvest, God will separate the wheat from the husk. And for that matter some of the wheat will land in rocky soil, on the path, ect. and never develop.

I have not pegged Voyager as a weed, God knows the time that Voyager will die, and if he is ‘wheat’ God knows how and when to contact him. As for if they known their status - I really have no idea, but here is my WAGS:
1 - weeds - some may know, others may not.
2 - wheat before the gift of the Holy Spirit - No/maybe
3 - wheat after the gift of the Holy Spirit - yes - but at times can be deceived by the attacks of Satan.

No it is not possible that a weed could come to follow Christ.

That says it all, right there. For me, I’d cast my lot with the weed Gandhi rather than the wheat like Pat Robertson and the pedophile priests. I’m pretty sure that Gandhi never accepted Jesus.

Anyhow, the weeds in my lawn thrive more than the grass. But, unlike me, they don’t ask embarrassing questions.

Again this is my understanding, the weeds are of Satan and can’t be saved. The wheat is what God has sown, but not all the wheat is fit for harvest, God will separate the wheat from the husk. And for that matter some of the wheat will land in rocky soil, on the path, ect. and never develop.

I have not pegged Voyager as a weed, God knows the time that Voyager will die, and if he is ‘wheat’ God knows how and when to contact him. As for if they known their status - I really have no idea, but here is my WAGS:
1 - weeds - some may know, others may not.
2 - wheat before the gift of the Holy Spirit - No/maybe
3 - wheat after the gift of the Holy Spirit - yes - but at times can be deceived by the attacks of Satan.

No it is not possible that a weed could come to follow Christ.

I do have permission to repost the following, which is a sermon by an Episcopal Church bishop directly related to what kanicbird and cosmosdan have been discussing above, and which I think is very relevant to the topic at hand:

+++++

*Matt 13:24 (NRSV) He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27 And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, "Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28 He answered, "An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, "Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he replied, “No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. 30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!*

O Lord, save us from the arrogance of “knowing,” and give us the humility which comes with remembering our need of You. Amen.
I’ve got a problem in my garden. This spring we planted some new bulbs, Montbretia, and in the space clearly demarcated for their growth, there are two kinds of plants. One of them is Montbretia; one of them is weeds. The problem is: I don’t know which is which!

Not unlike the parable Jesus told about the kingdom. In it, the servants note that two kinds of plants are growing in the field: Wheat, and something which (at least in the first few months) looks like wheat. In fact, it’s a weed which grows in that part of the world called “bearded darnel,” which looks exactly like wheat for a long time. When it finally heads out, its seed head is smaller than that of the wheat, and upon harvest, it can be sifted out – which is a good thing, because this weed can cause mild nausea in those who eat it. In Jesus’ parable, the workers, in their exuberance to purify the crop, want to rush in and pull out the darnel. But the Master says, “No, you’ll uproot the wheat. Wait. We’ll take care of it at harvest time. It’s going to turn out all right. The wheat will be gathered in the barn, and we’ll burn the noxious weeds.” And by the way, you can almost hear the Master saying, “How are you going to tell the weeds from the wheat?!”

You might be thinking that this parable is about evil in the world. It is. And God sends the rain on the just and the unjust – no matter how much it drives us crazy or how unfair it seems. You might be thinking this parable is about the cause of evil in the world. Which it is. And although I have a hard time imagining the devil, I know that evil can become so big, and so present, that it’s hard not to posit an evil mastermind behind it.

But for me, this parable, spoken by our Lord two millennia ago, is about arrogance and humility. Too much arrogance and too little humility in our lives as individuals, too much arrogance and too little humility in the Church, and too much arrogance and too little humility in America.

Arrogance, we all know, is the irritating air of one who exaggerates his/her own worth or contribution or knowledge. More specifically, according to Merriam Webster, to “arrogate” is to make undue claims or to seize without justification. And of all the things Jesus condemns, of all the things that make him angry, arrogance and self-righteousness are at the top of his list! And it occurs right in the middle of this parable when the servants assume that THEY can tell the difference between the wheat and the weeds. THEY know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys – and in their zeal to purge the weeds from the field, they threaten to destroy the wheat in the process. They have arrogated to themselves the ability and wisdom to tell good from evil. (Remember the Garden of Eden, and the Tree of Good and Evil of which we were not permitted to eat?)

I hate this parable, because on an interpersonal level, I do this all the time! Don’t you? We make judgments about people all the time – assume we know the motives behind the actions of another – make all kinds of judgments about the family next door, the mother on welfare, the man who has AIDS, the refugee who shows up at the Care Center, or the Enron executive facing a Congressional hearing – when in fact we know little about what is going on with these folk. But that doesn’t seem to stop our judging them.

In the Church, liberals malign conservatives, Anglo-Catholics barely tolerate evangelicals, and mainstream Christians are quick to dismiss fundamentalists. And vice versa, I might add. People who applaud the ordination of women have long ago written off those for whom it is still troublesome, heretical and painful. And vice versa. People who believe the Church should be fully inclusive of gay and lesbian folk believe that those who oppose their full inclusion are simply mean-spirited, and those who oppose it accuse the liberals of abandoning the authority of scripture. More often than not, each side in these debates would just as soon rip the other side out of the field by their roots.

The parable says to BOTH sides in these debates: Don’t be so sure you KNOW who are the weeds and who are the wheat. Don’t presume to know what is right. Say what you believe. Talk, discuss, fight even. But don’t claim to KNOW what God wants. Learn to exist together as the Body of Christ. Give it time. Disagree, even vehemently, but treat each other with respect. Fight if you must, but keep coming to this communion rail together to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. And in time, it’ll be sorted out. In the end, it’s gonna be okay. Because God is in charge, and GOD DOES KNOW the weeds from the wheat.

This parable says to me: don’t be so sure of yourself. You know God, but you can only know a tiny piece of the ultimate mystery of God, so don’t arrogate to yourself the knowledge of good and evil. Instead, with a humble heart, admit you don’t know everything, humbly work out your salvation with fear and trembling (not certainty), and treat those whom you regard as weeds in the field with special respect, lest in trying to root them out you harm the Body of Christ you so love.

Although it’s not an easy thing to listen to, I think this parable has a message for us globally as well. In the aftermath of September 11th, America is in great danger – not just from Al-Qaida, but in danger of becoming arrogant. We’re the biggest kid on the block. In fact, we’re the ONLY big kid on the block, and we have the might to do anything we want. So we are at risk for becoming arrogant – arrogating to ourselves the unilateral power of deciding who are the good guys and who are the bad. Actually, our track record in this regard isn’t all that good. It seems pretty clear to us today that Osama bin Laden is a bad guy – but a decade ago, when we branded Russia as the evil empire, we funded, trained and supported bin Laden in his fight against the Russians.

And now, this wonderful and great country of ours, which has always championed democracy and sought to deal with democratically elected leaders, has now, unilaterally, decided that democratically-elected Yassir Arafat is the wrong leader for the Palestinians. I don’t know if he is or not! But I am alarmed when our President declares that he KNOWS that the Palestinians would be better served by a different leader. What if the next person elected is from the militant group Hamas?! When we stop having an opinion about something, and start claiming to KNOW it, we are on a slippery slope.

Don’t get me wrong. There IS evil in the world. I flew into New York City on the morning of September 11th, and with my own eyes I saw evil crashing into those two towers of steel and humanity. We’re apt to see it again. And we must protect ourselves from it as best we can. But in our war on terrorism, let us be careful that the violence we do in routing out the Al-Qaida “weeds” of the world doesn’t destroy us in the process. We want to be safe, but let’s not give up our values and ideals in doing so. Let us not, as a nation, arrogate to ourselves the infallible knowledge of good and evil. Only God can fulfill that role.

This parable also speaks to me on a personal level – and here may be the key to understanding this relationship between arrogance and humility. It’s easy for me to see how the field, which contains wheat AND weeds, is ME, and MY life. I am BOTH. I do a lot of good; sometimes I say just the right thing; a good part of the time I walk with Jesus and know God and am moved by the Holy Spirit. But sometimes, I’m a stinker, a rat, a sinner lost in my own weakness. Or to put it in St. Paul’s words, “I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.” (Romans 7:19)

I am both weeds and wheat. When I convince myself that I’m all wheat and no weeds, I am arrogant. When I make my enemies into all weeds, and no wheat, I am arrogant. But when I remember that I am both wheat and weeds, good and evil, then I am more humble about my own life and not so judgmental of others. When I remember how complex I am, how mixed my own motives, then I can better avoid stereotyping or caricaturing those with whom I disagree. When I remember the weeds and faults and shortcomings in my own life, I’m less likely to project my evil onto others, and more likely to seek and serve Christ in them, as I have promised in my baptismal vows.

And when I remember that I am both weeds and wheat, I remember my own need of God. And I think that’s the key to avoiding arrogance and embracing a healthy kind of humility. It’s what Jesus meant in the Beatitudes when he said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit” – that is, blessed are those who know their need of God. The arrogant man who criticizes the splinter in another’s eye while ignoring the plank in his own, has forgotten his need of God. The arrogant older brother who resents the Prodigal Son’s return home is blind to his own hardness of heart, and has forgotten that the Father loves them BOTH. The men who are ready to stone the woman caught in adultery forget their own sins, and in wanting to stone her, threaten to pull up the roots of their own virtue.

The good news is that the harvest of your life and mine is not yet here. There is time. We are “works in progress.” God is patient and kind. If we acknowledge our need of God, our sin is forgiven, and we are empowered to love the world in His Name – as individuals, as brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ, and as our beloved country in the community of nations. In acknowledging our need of God, we avoid arrogating to ourselves the knowledge of good and evil, and instead embrace humility and the miracle that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

The good news of this parable is: Let God worry about who are weeds and who are wheat. In time it will be clear. In time, all will be well. Because God is in charge. And God WILL have the last word. And for that, we can be truly thankful. Amen.

kanicbird should go to this church.

In actuality, last spring, after I dumped soil from my compost bin onto my garden, I got a bunch of what looked like weeds. I decided to leave a few grow to see what they were, and discovered to our delight that they were actually spaghetti squash plants. Spaghetti squash straight from the garden is even better than that from the store.

I’d also add that dandelions are weeds to some, but the makings of a salad to others.

And how odd that kanicbird thinks Satan is more powerful than God.

So to sum up the situation; there’s wheat and weeds. Some wheat will be saved, and some won’t. No weeds will be saved.

Is it within God’s power to change weeds into wheat? If so, why does he not?

Could you explain what you mean by the gift of the Holy Spirit? Is it a way of referring to what might be called being “born again”? Would you accept the possibility that you yourself might be a deceived weed?

Is this because they do not truly have free will, or because Satan or God keeps them in a deceived state constantly?

And just to switch this around, would it be possible to identify wheat by seeing if someone has, either presently or at some point in their lives, followed Christ? It wouldn’t mean they’re certainly saved, but let’s say someone follows Christ and then is deceived and leaves the path; we can say with 100% certainty that they are wheat, right?

How do we know we are one? If we are one does that mean we no longer sin at all? What about the sins committed before we get there?

Huh? You’re saved and go to heaven even though you’re not effective in your service and don’t do God’s will? You might want to rethink that one.

Then any sincere love in the world comes from God whether a Christian is involved or not.

When you make that statement you are already judging. You’re making a judgment call about what you perceive to be God’s plan even if it doesn’t seem just. Even though it actually contradicts what Jesus taught about our actions revealing what spirit is within us.

I don’t agree that using love to describe those things is a correct use of the term. desire perhaps, priorities maybe. Not love. Corinthians 13 gives us a pretty good description of love. Using the term casually or in it’s common incorrect use isn’t what I’m talking about.

I noticed you really didn’t answer the questions I asked. It’s okay. I didn’t expect you could.

Well I have taken this to mean that pulling up the weeds will tear the roots of the wheat, since the roots are in the same ground and intertwined. It seems a more logical interpretation from the scripture, the servants (angels) can obviously tell, as they brought the very question to the master, if they couldn’t tell they wouldn’t have asked. Also the master directly warns about uprooting the wheat, not mistaking wheat for weeds.

I understand the message that your pasture has said, I just don’t think this scripture supports it, and there is obviously a evil one in this passage. As for knowing who is
weeds and wheat - the weeds MAY refer to demons, earth bound supernatural creatures, which have no chance of salvation, or may refer to people, I don’t know.

I don’t know why you would say this, Satan is allowed to operate within the bounds that God has set forth - if Satan follows the rules set forth why should God stop him?

It is within the power of God to do so, but the judgment has been made already. God is the ultimate judge, there is no appeal because his judgment is always correct and just.

Indwelling of the Spirit of God, a ‘force’ of sorts that allows you to operate as a extension of the Son and Father when called upon, this is what born again is, you are a new ‘person’ at that time, you are now wheat that bears fruit (or seeds or whatever it bears). I don’t accept that I am a weed, I am not a demon, and I’m not sure if a person can be a weed - but I leave open the possibility. As for being a unfruitful wheat, a person can be deceived by following a false Christ and accepting a false spirit. We are told to look out for that, which I have been and will continue to do. It is possible that I have been deceived, yes as I have been in the past, it’s something easy to do, we are warned to constantly be on guard aganst this very issue.

Satan is condemned already - final judgment is made against his kingdom, and all in it the weeds are of Satan. So they don’t have free will, which I see is the ability to switch kingdoms.

Unfruitful wheat in this case, which is also separated out in another parable.

Again it’s on personal level, you know when the living God is indwelling you, no it doesn’t mean that you won’t sin, but you try not to because you know it hurts God, every sin you commit goes against another person - a person who you love very much and that loves you. By accepting this gift (transfer of sins) you realize that for every sin you do a innocent man suffers for it.

I did as soon as I posted it but haven’t come up with a reply to it yet.

Everything comes from the Father, including love in any form from anyone.

I will have to look into this issue further, though I initially disagree with your premise.
(have to run now, get to the rest later)