[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Won’t stand out in a court of law, you won’t have constitutional rights in God’s court, it appears like we will be the ones to testify against ourselves.
[/QUOTE]
That actually seems pretty fair. You believe in demons, and your actions against them will allow you to let yourself off. I don’t, so my actions in life will also be enough to convince me. Of course, there’s the slight problem when you get onto evil people who think they’re actually right.
I notice in your last exchange with Voyager, kanicbird, you switched the topic from his on A&E to us in general now. In that way you pretty much avoided his point on them - could you perhaps answer how A&E may be blamed if they were unaware of children existing, let alone that they would take the blame too?
Oh, and could you go back and answer my questions in my last post? I don’t blame you for missing them.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
The temptations provided by demons are part of our sinful nature - it very well may be the root level entanglement in that parable. I don’t know what you mean that you just learned that God created (semi?)immortal beings to make things worse. Demons are throughout Jesus’s work - it’s just not a obscure reference, it was one of the 3 main things He did - teach, heal the sick and cast out demons - He did this over and over, and instructed His followers to do the same, and scripture tells of 1000’s of demons cast out by Jesus. It was God’s power which created everything, but God does delegate the use of His power.
Won’t stand out in a court of law, you won’t have constitutional rights in God’s court, it appears like we will be the ones to testify against ourselves.
[/QUOTE]
Of course I knew about demons, and how Jesus cured mental illness by driving them out of a person and into pigs. Scientifically accurate stuff like that is why I’m a believer.
Anyhow, you agree that God created demons to torment us. They wouldn’t have to bother those who are damned at birth, would they? Flip Wilson obviously had it wrong: he should have said “the deity made me buy this dress.”
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Anyhow, you agree that God created demons to torment us.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if they were directly created by God or created by Satan’s authorization of the use of that power.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
They wouldn’t have to bother those who are damned at birth, would they?
[/QUOTE]
Yes for several reasons:
-There is a question if a Christian can be possessed at all, as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occupies the person which at the least causes great hindrance to possession, but someone already possessed may stay possessed if the Holy Spirit indwells after the demon has come in. So at the very least it is harder for a demon to gain entry.
Satan likes to set up false religions, such as witchcraft, voodoo, fortune telling, and others including some respectable sounding ones, which the demons are the ones who provide the information or perform the tasks. By such false religions working, Satan can lure people away from God.
Other demonic possessions of a nonbeliever could lead to a direct physical or spirtual attack against a believer, or Satan using that controlled person to change what is to happen to hinder God’s plan.
In general demons don’t like not having a body and will grab whatever one comes by - again believers have the defense of the Holy Spirit.
[QUOTE=RT]
That actually seems pretty fair. You believe in demons, and your actions against them will allow you to let yourself off. I don’t, so my actions in life will also be enough to convince me.
[/QUOTE]
Actually it is quite the opposite, God seems to let people off easier if they are lacking knowledge of the situation. Jesus said something like these people who have seen the miracles I do and don’t beleive will be judged much more harshly then the people of Sadom.
The switch from A&E to the farmer was a new connection, and I was more thinking out loud. What the argument was is that A&E were not provided perfect knowledge to allow them a fair choice, I don’t see how it was possible to give them that knowledge, it is possible that God Himself didn’t know, as that God may have been Jesus, as no man has ever seen the Father, and it is scripturally accurate that things that the father knew Jesus didn’t. If we accept this I would say there were just so many possibilities that would open up that it would be unexplainable as Satan started to have free will in ruling the world.
Now, again IIRC, your response will be “Is it the fault of the parents, or is it the fault of the situation in China?” To which I would respond; it is both. Mostly the fault of the parents, since they don’t have to move there. And partly the fault of the causers of the situation in China. Now, to analogise this back to God; putting us here is his fault, since we don’t have to be put here. And the creation of the situation of existence is, again, down to God. So he is in fact (well, not in fact. Assuming he exists.) to blame even more so than the parents of the child are
[/QUOTE]
I assume this is the one that you are talking about? I would contend that man’s fallen state is still a net benefit to him. By ourselves we have nothing, Instead of God giving us all the stuff in the Garden of Eden, we now just a less, but that stuff was never ours to begin with.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
God moves in mysterious ways. We can’t hope to fully understand him and why he did things the way he did.
…will be the reasoning, I assume. Sorry to poison the well if i’m wrong.
[/QUOTE]
You left out “Who are we, with our trivial mental powers, to question THe Infinite Almighty?”
I firmly believe that anyone would be incredulous if confronted with the bare story and with no knowledge of the centuries of tradition associated with it.
[QUOTE=Diletante]
For the purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that the church is mostly right. As a matter of historical fact, Jesus died as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity, and through Him we can have salvation if we accept him as our savior.
Why? Does that make sense? Is it supposed to?
Wouldn’t it have been a lot cooler and more streamlined if he could have just died, redeemed humanity and then everyone gets their hand stamped at the gate? Why does that model make less sense than St. Paul’s outline?
Wait! Now, that I think about it, why did he have to die at all? Why couldn’t he just go ahead and announce “All sins are forgiven, thanks for coming, see you in heaven, I’m out!”? That’s how I think I would have done it. Obviously, JC’s exit had more dramatic flair, but I can’t see why my models make less sense theologically.
[/QUOTE]
Of course this is no more unecessarily involved than the exodus of the Israelites out of Egypt.
God hardened Pharaoh’s heart against letting the Israelites go so that He could force him into finally letting them go. If He could harden hearts He certainly could soften them to the extent that the Pharaoh would have allowed the Israelites to leave and even provided them with supplies and protection on their journey. That would have saved a lot of misery and the lives of many innocent first-born.
There is also the complex shenanigans in the story of of the twins Esau and Jacob. Esau was the older and by custom was entitled to the birthright of inheritance from their father. However, Jacob actually received it, if we take the Bible at face value that must be explained. So an involved story was developed in order to account for Jacob’s ascendency.
It’s possible that Esau and Jacob never existed as real people but were patronymics for Edom and Israel. The story would then account for the ascendency of Israel over Edom.
The Bible has a number of accounts of events of unecessary complexity in order for an Omnipotent Being to work His will.
