# Christian T-shirt company refuses to do gay pride T-shirts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504 "2017-05-13T02:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/62 "2017-05-14T13:13:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But that was way back in '93, before any of us were alive. Nowadays the community is apparently .07% African American. Well, 1993 is not “now”. And any reason you didn’t give the link to that cite? Maybe it had to do with this, from the same cite: > [@](#): > > In fairness, Vidor had changed, at least somewhat. It’s no longer a city that actively shuns blacks. In fact, African-Americans often shop there, even if very few are residents ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/63 "2017-05-14T13:14:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But that was way back in '93, before any of us were alive. Nowadays the community is apparently .07% African American. That math works out to roughly 8 black people. In one of the blackest parts of the country – surrounding towns and cities in west LA an east TX are 50% black or more. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/64 "2017-05-14T13:15:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, 1993 is not “now”. And any reason you didn’t give the link to that cite? Maybe it had to do with this, from the same cite: I’ve driven through Vidor many, many times, including within the last 10 years, and KKK signs and symbols were still prominent on the main streets of the town. Towns don’t stay that white in that part of LA and TX without an effort to make it happen. It probably has improved – just as Jim Crow was an improvement from slavery. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/65 "2017-05-14T13:42:27Z")
Let’s just stipulate that corporations cannot have a religion. I’ve never seen a corporation sitting in a pew at church, for example. Corporations are inanimate objects, not people. They can’t vote, they can’t have a religion. You own a business, you suck it up buttercup and serve all the public. Does this same company print “Make America Great Again” shirts? If so, they can’t claim to be Christian and can’t hide behind that fig leaf. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/66 "2017-05-14T14:15:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, 1993 is not “now”. And any reason you didn’t give the link to that cite? Maybe it had to do with this, from the same cite: Oh no! You caught on to my plan to not quote the entire secret wikipedia cite! Curses! Foiled again! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/67 "2017-05-14T14:26:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s just stipulate that corporations cannot have a religion. I’ve never seen a corporation sitting in a pew at church, for example. Corporations are inanimate objects, not people. They can’t vote, they can’t have a religion. You own a business, you suck it up buttercup and serve all the public. > > Does this same company print “Make America Great Again” shirts? If so, they can’t claim to be Christian and can’t hide behind that fig leaf. By your reasoning, if I ran a t-shirt printing business, if I were willing to print Gay Pride t-shirts, I must also be willing to print KKK or neo-Nazi t-shirts? I don’t agree with this at all. I think the owners of a business should be free to choose what social or political _speech_ they are willing to facilitate through their business. A business cannot discriminate against a protected class of _people_ that the owners don’t like, but I don’t think that protection should extend to obliging the owner to print any customized social/political slogan that a customer demands. If (say) a black person cannot get a hotel room within 100 miles because all the hotels in an area run by racists, that’s not acceptable and there must be legal redress. But if that black person is unable to find a local store that will print a t-shirt with his chosen political slogan, that’s such a minor hardship that I don’t think it rises to a level where it overrides the business owners’ right to free speech. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/68 "2017-05-14T15:37:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s just stipulate that corporations cannot have a religion. I’ve never seen a corporation sitting in a pew at church, for example. Corporations are inanimate objects, not people. They can’t vote, they can’t have a religion. You own a business, you suck it up buttercup and serve all the public. I don’t see how that’s relevant or accurate . Corporations can have properties like any other entity that is composed of a person or group of people have. > [@](#): > > Does this same company print “Make America Great Again” shirts? If so, they can’t claim to be Christian and can’t hide behind that fig leaf. This may fall into the opinion category. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/69 "2017-05-14T15:48:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > A business cannot discriminate against a protected class of _people_ that the owners don’t like… I’m singling this out because it’s an important piece to understand. The actual term is “suspect class”, and currently sexual orientation does not fall into that category at the federal level. Only race, national origin, religion and alienage are considered “suspect classes” to which strict scrutiny is applies when looking at discrimination cases. Now, there is also gender and birth legitimacy that get “intermediate scrutiny”, but the SCOTUS has not yet elevated Sexual Orientation to either of those levels. It’s still at the “rational basis level”. Well, technically. I think one can argue that there is “rational basis with teeth” now and sexual orientation seems to fit there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/70 "2017-05-14T15:49:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Were you alive when that happened? I was. This stuff was still going on when I was a young child. Which is a reminder that the struggle for civil rights isn’t something that happened back in ancient history. This is something that happened just a few decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/71 "2017-05-14T16:03:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh no! You caught on to my plan to not quote the entire secret wikipedia cite! Curses! Foiled again! So, is it your assertion that Vidor is a sundown town? Because that is the topic under discussion. As for your cite, I just pointed out that you have to go to the source of that wikipedia article (something few people do) to get the full story. But I can understand why you might prefer to divert attention to that topic instead of the one you were trying to defend. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/72 "2017-05-14T16:08:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > By your reasoning, if I ran a t-shirt printing business, if I were willing to print Gay Pride t-shirts, I must also be willing to print KKK or neo-Nazi t-shirts? I don’t agree with this at all. I think the owners of a business should be free to choose what social or political _speech_ they are willing to facilitate through their business. No, not at all. Your argument is based on a false equivalence. Being a Nazi is wrong. Being a klansman is wrong. Being gay is not wrong. Therefore businesses should be allowed to refuse to serve Nazis and klansmen. But businesses should not be allowed to refuse to serve gay people. > [@Riemann](#): > > A business cannot discriminate against a protected class of _people_ that the owners don’t like, but I don’t think that protection should extend to obliging the owner to print any customized social/political slogan that a customer demands. If (say) a black person cannot get a hotel room within 100 miles because all the hotels in an area run by racists, that’s not acceptable and there must be legal redress. But if that black person is unable to find a local store that will print a t-shirt with his chosen political slogan, that’s such a minor hardship that I don’t think it rises to a level where it overrides the business owners’ right to free speech. It’s not enough to just give two examples and say one’s okay and the other one isn’t. You have to draw a line between what’s okay and what isn’t so people know what’s legal and what’s illegal. So what’s the standard you’re espousing? Why are hotels obliged to accept black customers but t-shirt shops are not? Does a restaurant have to accept black customers? Does a grocery store? Does a hardware store? Does a bank? Does a barber shop? Or can some of these businesses refuse to serve black people? You said a black person shouldn’t be denied a room at a hotel if there’s no hotels that accept black people within a hundred miles. What about fifty miles? Or twenty miles? Of five miles? Suppose the hotel across the street accepts black customers but it has no vacancies tonight. Does that mean the whites only hotel has to now accept black customers for tonight? Suppose the whites only hotel charges fifty dollars a night and the any race hotel charges a hundred dollars a night. Do black people have to just pay the extra fifty dollars to stay in a hotel room? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/73 "2017-05-14T16:10:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, is it your assertion that Vidor is a sundown town? Because that is the topic under discussion. As for your cite, I just pointed out that you have to go to the source of that wikipedia article (something few people do) to get the full story. But I can understand why you might prefer to divert attention to that topic instead of the one you were trying to defend. Well, when the “full story” is merely adding “it’s not so bad now. Some black people shop there” I’m not positive it was worth the investigation. I don’t know if it is some form of sundown town but a klan rally a mere 20 years ago, a shockingly low black population and iiandyiii’s mention of Klan symbols makes it suspect enough to not roll your eyes at the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/74 "2017-05-14T16:17:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m singling this out because it’s an important piece to understand. The actual term is “suspect class”, and currently sexual orientation does not fall into that category at the federal level… I understand that, which is (in part) why I switched to a racial example. This obviously has bearing on specific legal outcomes at present, but I don’t think it has any bearing on the principles or morality/rights/social justice that we’re trying to untangle here, unless people are arguing that for some reason sexual orientation _should not in principle_ be granted the same protection as race. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/75 "2017-05-14T16:18:40Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Does it matter for the sake of this argument? Yes, I think so. Because my rebuttal is that what you described, while certainly in my living memory, was not in yours, and thus it’s not relevant to describe it as though it’s happening now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/76 "2017-05-14T16:20:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s just stipulate that corporations cannot have a religion. Let’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/77 "2017-05-14T16:21:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In case you weren’t aware, sundown towns still exist in some form. Vidor, TX is a relatively prominent example. No, it isn’t. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/78 "2017-05-14T16:33:39Z")
I think the quote John Mace gave was actually from the end of this [CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/oppenheim.sundown.town/). Here’s how it concludes: > [@](#): > > Peggy Fruge told me she’d welcome blacks to her neighborhood. > > Then she said this:“I don’t mind being friends with them, talking and stuff like that, but as far as mingling and eating with them, all that kind of stuff, that’s where I draw the line.” > > I was taken aback, surprised the sound of prejudice could emerge so easily. But, I realized, her comments only reflected part of the story. > > In fairness, Vidor had changed, at least somewhat. It’s no longer a city that actively shuns blacks. In fact, African-Americans often shop there, even if very few are residents. > > Still, what took me aback was how Vidor had evolved into a kind of complacency. It was trying to change, but not all that hard, and sometimes wanted to be left alone. And to a great extent, that explained why Vidor has not quite escaped its past In attempt to give the full story. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/79 "2017-05-14T16:37:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, is it your assertion that Vidor is a sundown town? Because that is the topic under discussion. > > As for your cite, I just pointed out that you have to go to the source of that wikipedia article (something few people do) to get the full story. But I can understand why you might prefer to divert attention to that topic instead of the one you were trying to defend. I’d say that Vidor is still a sundown town to some degree, yes – I believe the KKK is still largely tolerated, and there is enough informal agreement and sentiment between business owners, residents, and authorities that black people very quickly and reasonably feel unwelcome and wary enough that they’re largely unwilling and functionally unable to live there. This is a good resource for sundown towns, both in the past and present: > **[You searched for Sundown Towns/ - History and Social Justice](https://justice.tougaloo.edu/?s=Sundown%2BTowns%2F)** ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/80 "2017-05-14T16:41:48Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > By your reasoning, if I ran a t-shirt printing business, if I were willing to print Gay Pride t-shirts, I must also be willing to print KKK or neo-Nazi t-shirts? I don’t agree with this at all. I think the owners of a business should be free to choose what social or political _speech_ they are willing to facilitate through their business. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, not at all. Your argument is based on a false equivalence. > > Being a Nazi is wrong. Being a klansman is wrong. Being gay is not wrong. > > Therefore businesses should be allowed to refuse to serve Nazis and klansmen. But businesses should not be allowed to refuse to serve gay people. You’ve blatantly switched what I said from _speech_ (even though I highlighted the point) to _people_. And it should be obvious that we do not protect speech by making a list of what speech is “right” and what speech is “wrong”, and allowing only the “right” speech. We protect the _freedom_, and the test of our principles should always be to draw a parallel with situations where the protected speech is abhorrent to us. If we want the freedom as business owners to decline to facilitate (say) pro-Nazi _speech_ by printing it on t-shirts, then we should allow bigoted (in our opinion) business owners the freedom to decline to facilitate pro-Gay _speech_. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > …It’s not enough to just give two examples and say one’s okay and the other one isn’t. You have to draw a line between what’s okay and what isn’t so people know what’s legal and what’s illegal… Oh, really? If you read the thread, you will see that this is exactly the difficult problem that we had already been discussing, e.g. post #3, #17, and #18. It seems to me that in the early part of the thread, most commenters were in broad agreement on the general ballpark of where the line should be, and the precise topic of discussion was the difficulty in pinning it down exactly. It’s only more recent comments that have regressed to discussing drawing that line in wildly different places that seem rather obviously wrong, e.g.: > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So what’s the standard you’re espousing? Why are hotels obliged to accept black customers but t-shirt shops are not? Does a restaurant have to accept black customers? Does a grocery store? Does a hardware store? Does a bank? Does a barber shop? Or can some of these businesses refuse to serve black people? I suggest that you read what I have written a little more carefully. No business, ever, should be allowed to refuse to serve a _person_ buying the same product that the business would provide to anyone else solely because of that persons’s membership of a protected class. The distinction that we are seeking to draw is what (if any) \*customized products \* should a business be allowed to decline to produce, based on the notion that for certain types of product the business owner may (arguably) be seen to be endorsing or facilitating the speech entailed in those products. That’s what this thread (until recently) was about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504/81 "2017-05-14T16:44:18Z")
Vidor was long an open sundown town, with explicit sundown signs up until the 60s and 70s at least (and maybe later too). It also has a recent history of KKK marches after attempts at racially integrating housing in the town (in the 90s most recently), after which the new black residents all left. I have personally seen KKK signs and symbols while driving through Vidor dozens of times, in the 90s and the 00s. It has a local reputation as very unwelcoming to black people, to the point that most black people in the area are still unwilling to stop in Vidor for normal purposes. And it has a near-zero black population in one of the blackest parts of the country – east TX and west LA. These are all facts. It’s possible there’s another explanation for all these facts that doesn’t involve some level of informal agreement and influence between many or most of the influential Vidor business owners, residents, and authorities, to make black people feel unwelcome and unwanted in the town, but I think the best explanation for all of these facts is that there is still some level of informal and subtle (or more overt, in some cases, like the signs I’ve personally seen multiple times) agreement among Vidor residents/business owners/authorities that can be reasonably characterized as a sundown town. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-t-shirt-company-refuses-to-do-gay-pride-t-shirts/786504.md?page=5)