Christian T-shirt company refuses to do gay pride T-shirts

[Riemann]

@ctnguy

I agree with your point, but did you really have to choose such an inflammatory example to juxtapose to the “Gay Pride” message?

Yes, I really did. For the obvious reason that I wanted to test whether I was allowing my personal political or social views to influence my objectivity about the underlying principle. The test for the sincerity of any principle of free speech that we claim to embrace is whether we maintain that principle consistently for speech that we find abhorrent.

[Riemann]

@John_Mace

That line is getting so fine, it’s beginning to disappear.

What if the baker is asked write: Joined in Holy Matrimony? Seems like we’re getting to a point where we need a list of court-approved phrases, and that way lies madness.

It seems to me that the business owner’s free speech and the entitlement of protected classes to live equally are fundamentally in opposition, so there will never be a perfectly satisfactory solution. But what’s the alternative to trying to draw a line of principle somewhere to determine when one should trump the other?

It does seem to me that the conflict only arises when one’s political or social views incorporate bigotry, when you fundamentally want to prevent all people from living equally. In that sense, not all speech can possibly be treated exactly equally. And that being so, if you do hold those kind of views, although the courts should still protect your freedom of speech as a business owner when no unreasonable hardship is caused, you should expect marginal cases to be ruled against you, and tough shit.

[pkbites]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Yes, so Mormons who have a doctrinal problem with black people shouldn’t have to worry about any pesky anti-discrimination lawsuits when they turn them away.

In a free country private entities should not have to do business with anyone they don’t want to. And they shouldn’t need a defense to it either, like religion. “I just don’t want to” is good enough. And they shouldn’t need to be consistent about it either. If a baker makes a cake for a gay wedding on Monday that doesn’t mean he has to make one on Tuesday. And it needn’t be moral issues either. If the owner of the local Speedway doesn’t want to sell me gasoline because I have red hair, so be it.

This idea of forcing someone to do business with somebody they don’t wish to is pure fascism.

I encourage people to wear their bigotries and prejudices on their sleeves. That way you know exactly what kind of people they are.

[Trinopus]

@pkbites

. . . This idea of forcing someone to do business with somebody they don’t wish to is pure fascism. . . .

Unfortunately, the opposite is also fascism. Sometimes, you can’t win.

Forced inclusion is somewhat better than forced exclusion, and so that’s the way we’ve decided to go.

Also the equal protection clause of the constitution has some weight.

[John_Mace]

Actually, neither one of those things is “fascism”. Best to leave inflammatory labels like that out of the debate.

@Riemann

It seems to me that the business owner’s free speech and the entitlement of protected classes to live equally are fundamentally in opposition, so there will never be a perfectly satisfactory solution. But what’s the alternative to trying to draw a line of principle somewhere to determine when one should trump the other?

It does seem to me that the conflict only arises when one’s political or social views incorporate bigotry, when you fundamentally want to prevent all people from living equally. In that sense, not all speech can possibly be treated exactly equally. And that being so, if you do hold those kind of views, although the courts should still protect your freedom of speech as a business owner when no unreasonable hardship is caused, you should expect marginal cases to be ruled against you, and tough shit.

How about: If you want to buy anything that’s “off the shelf”, fine. If you want something custom ordered, then I get to decline if I so choose.

[Riemann]

@John_Mace

…How about: If you want to buy anything that’s “off the shelf”, fine. If you want something custom ordered, then I get to decline if I so choose.

I’m not sure that this is the clear distinction that you think it is.

Obviously it can’t be just any customization, otherwise bigoted business owners would just use this as a workaround to refuse gay customers altogether. I don’t think you’re suggesting that a baker can just refuse to make a pizza with custom toppings at will, because if you allow that, he may exercise that right every time a gay customer walks through the door.

So you still need to draw that fine line to specify what kind of customization rises to a level that a business owner’s free speech is entailed. It seems to me that specifying that distinction is exactly the line that I was trying to draw above.

[John_Mace]

@Riemann

I’m not sure that this is the clear distinction that you think it is.

Obviously it can’t be just any customization, otherwise bigoted business owners would just use this as a workaround to refuse gay customers altogether. I don’t think you’re suggesting that a baker can just refuse to make a pizza with custom toppings at will, because if you allow that, he may exercise that right every time a gay customer walks through the door.

So you still need to draw that fine line to specify what kind of customization rises to a level that a business owner’s free speech is entailed. It seems to me that specifying that distinction is exactly the line that I was trying to draw above.

It’s easy to refuse service if you really want to. “I’m too busy right now, sorry”. If someone really wants to pursue this, they have to set up test case. Otherwise, the government isn’t there to fix every little issue that life throws at you. I have a business, and sometimes I do turn down business for no other reason than “they are going to be a royal PITA to work with”. Don’t like it? Sue me.

These kinds of law suites are more suited to be taken against large corporations where there are public records, or lots and lots of transactions. For mom and pop businesses, not so much.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@pkbites

This idea of forcing someone to do business with somebody they don’t wish to is pure fascism.

This is cute.

[Bricker]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Yes, so Mormons who have a doctrinal problem with black people shouldn’t have to worry about any pesky anti-discrimination lawsuits when they turn them away.

♬ In 1978, God changed his mind about black people.

[/The Book of Mormon, script, lyrics, and music by Robert Lopez, Trey Parker, and Matt Stone]

[Stringbean]

@Little_Nemo

Do you feel it should be legal for a business to refuse to serve black customers if it wished to do so?

It should be illegal to refuse service to a black customer.

It should be legal to refuse service to a black customer who wants you to print a shirt that says “kill whitey.”

#nuance

[Esco]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Yes, so Mormons who have a doctrinal problem with black people shouldn’t have to worry about any pesky anti-discrimination lawsuits when they turn them away

Has that happened though?? Sounds like something you pulled out of your ass

[Esco]

@Stringbean

It should be illegal to refuse service to a black customer.

It should be legal to refuse service to a black customer who wants you to print a shirt that says “kill whitey.”

#nuance

Brilliantly said

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Esco

Has that happened though?? Sounds like something you pulled out of your ass

That specific example? Maybe, maybe not. People refusing service to black people, to the point that African-Americans had to write a fucking book detailing where in the country you could safely visit as a black person? Yeah. That’s a thing.

[Bricker]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

That specific example? Maybe, maybe not. People refusing service to black people, to the point that African-Americans had to write a fucking book detailing where in the country you could safely visit as a black person? Yeah. That’s a thing.

Were you alive when that happened?

[Esco]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

That specific example? Maybe, maybe not. People refusing service to black people, to the point that African-Americans had to write a fucking book detailing where in the country you could safely visit as a black person? Yeah. That’s a thing.

Just FTR, I’m against not serving people because they’re black or gay.
I am for businesses deserving the right to not have to proclaim political messages on whatever product they produce

[John_Mace]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

That specific example? Maybe, maybe not. People refusing service to black people, to the point that African-Americans had to write a fucking book detailing where in the country you could safely visit as a black person? Yeah. That’s a thing.

But today that would never happen. There would be an app for that.

[iiandyiiii]

@Bricker

Were you alive when that happened?

In case you weren’t aware, sundown towns still exist in some form. Vidor, TX is a relatively prominent example.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Bricker

Were you alive when that happened?

Does it matter for the sake of this argument?

[John_Mace]

@iiandyiiii

In case you weren’t aware, sundown towns still exist in some form. Vidor, TX is a relatively prominent example.

Please tell us more.

[CarnalK]

Vidor was known as a “sundown town,” where African Americans were not allowed after sunset; it was long considered a haven for the Ku Klux Klan. In 1993, after the U.S. federal government attempted to bring African Americans into Vidor’s public housing, the Klan held a march in the community, prompting African American families to move out within a matter of months.

But that was way back in '93, before any of us were alive. Nowadays the community is apparently .07% African American.