# Christian Theology Question: No Possibility of the Dead Visiting The Living? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068 "2013-09-17T17:10:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/1 "2013-09-17T17:10:35Z")
The Bible seems to take a dim view of ghosts-witness King Saul’s experience in necromancy. My understanding is that once death occurs, the soul moves on…and there is no reason for it to linger in the land of the living. So, does Christianity expressly forbid the contacting of the dead? Is this something that invites divine punishment? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/2 "2013-09-17T17:29:50Z")
It is forbidden in a “thou shalt not” kind of way, yes. But the incident with King Saul does suggest that, wherever the dead hang out, it is possible to contact them. Of course, from a personal/practical standpoint, I’d put contacting the dead on par with parting the red sea and bringing Lazarus back to life. Possible, yes. Something you should expect to accomplish yourself? No. When people claim to be contacting the dead, I’ll assume they are lying or delusional. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/3 "2013-09-17T17:37:33Z")
Yes: [Talking to the Dead: What Does the Bible Say?](http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/talkingtodead.htm) > **[The Truth About Halloween](https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201309/truth-about-halloween/)** > > Is Halloween a way to have fun? Get the truth about Halloween & similar celebrations. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/4 "2013-09-17T17:45:14Z")
Yes, belief in ghosts was commonplace, and consulting them was forbidden. OT examples: Leviticus 19:31 ESV “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God. liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Leviticus 20:6 ESV “If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. Leviticus 20:27 ESV “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. Isaiah 8:19 ESV And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? NT has fewer examples: 1 Timothy 4:1 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 1 John 4:1 ESV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. Revelation 21:8 ESV But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/5 "2013-09-17T18:53:35Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Yes: [http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/talkingtodead.htm](http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/talkingtodead.htm) > > [http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201309/truth-about-halloween/](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201309/truth-about-halloween/) Second link is to Jehovah’s Witnesses - not known for their adherence to mainstream christian theology. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/6 "2013-09-17T19:14:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So, does Christianity expressly forbid the contacting of the dead? Is this something that invites divine punishment? I think the thread title and the text of the OP are asking different questions. It may be that Christians are forbidden from trying to contact the dead, but that it is possible for the dead to make unsolicited visits to the living (e.g. in a dream). I think you will find differing opinions among Christians over whether the latter can and does occasionally happen. Also, among some Christians (e.g. Roman Catholics) it’s common practice to pray to dead people (e.g. the saints) to ask for their assistance or intercession—though not all denominations accept this. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/7 "2013-09-17T19:16:54Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Second link is to Jehovah’s Witnesses - not known for their adherence to mainstream christian theology. Ok. I am no expert. Is there much difference between the two (mainstream and JW doctrines) in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/8 "2013-09-17T19:30:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think the thread title and the text of the OP are asking different questions. It may be that Christians are forbidden from trying to contact the dead, but that it is possible for the dead to make unsolicited visits to the living (e.g. in a dream). I think you will find differing opinions among Christians over whether the latter can and does occasionally happen. > > Also, among some Christians (e.g. Roman Catholics) it’s common practice to pray to dead people (e.g. the saints) to ask for their assistance or intercession—though not all denominations accept this. Correct, RCs may pray to saints, which is, I guess, in a way, trying to contact the dead, although it’s not exactly trying to initiate a conversation – one doesn’t expect an immediate response to one’s prayers. And RCs, some of them, believe that some dead people have made unsolicited visits to the living – chiefly Mary. The Church generally does not endorse claims of apparitions of Mary, although there are a few that the Church doesn’t actually say were not real (Fatima, Lourdes, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/9 "2013-09-17T19:31:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Ok. I am no expert. Is there much difference between the two (mainstream and JW doctrines) in this case? My only point is that I would not use them as an example of ‘mainstream’ christian thought on _any_ topic - even when on the surface they may appear to agree. In this specific case, they are probably ‘reasonably’ close, but as a rule, the JW have a much more ‘demons are active everywhere’ viewpoint of the world. I was not intending to start a debate (or discussion) on the JW specifically. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/10 "2013-09-17T19:45:37Z")
> [@simster](#): > > My only point is that I would not use them as an example of ‘mainstream’ christian thought on _any_ topic - even when on the surface they may appear to agree. > > In this specific case, they are probably ‘reasonably’ close, but as a rule, the JW have a much more ‘demons are active everywhere’ viewpoint of the world. > > I was not intending to start a debate (or discussion) on the JW specifically. Ok, right. As I said, I’m no expert. I figured they were still Christian (since they think Christ is the path to salvation), if not mainstream, and the OP did not specify mainstream. I also wanted to link more than one cite so that they reinforce each other. I was wondering if I goofed, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/11 "2013-09-17T19:55:09Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think the thread title and the text of the OP are asking different questions. It may be that Christians are forbidden from trying to contact the dead, but that it is possible for the dead to make unsolicited visits to the living (e.g. in a dream). I think you will find differing opinions among Christians over whether the latter can and does occasionally happen. Latin American Catholicism is full of this sort of stuff. Or, rather, while not an express part of Catholicism, it doesn’t make any waves if you were to tell someone “[Dead] Grandma visited me as I was waking up and said my children will have happy lives.” ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/12 "2013-09-18T06:37:40Z")
Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus during the transfiguration. Sounds like ghosts to me. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/13 "2013-09-18T06:44:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It may be that Christians are forbidden from trying to contact the dead, but that it is possible for the dead to make unsolicited visits to the living (e.g. in a dream). To wit, St. Augustine dreaming about his recently-deceased friend being in Hell. > [@](#): > > Also, among some Christians (e.g. Roman Catholics) it’s common practice to pray to dead people (e.g. the saints) to ask for their assistance or intercession—though not all denominations accept this. We’re not expecting them to talk back, though - in fact, if they do talk back you’re supposed to get your brain temperature checked. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/14 "2013-09-18T10:48:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, belief in ghosts was commonplace, and consulting them was forbidden. > > OT examples: > > Leviticus 19:31 ESV > “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God. > > liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” > > Leviticus 20:6 ESV > “If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. > > Leviticus 20:27 ESV > “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” > > Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV > “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. > > Isaiah 8:19 ESV > And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? > > NT has fewer examples: > > 1 Timothy 4:1 ESV > Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, > > 1 John 4:1 ESV > Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. > > Revelation 21:8 ESV > But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Far more often than not the “spirits” being referred to in the bible aren’t the dead, they’re demons. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/15 "2013-09-18T12:39:04Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > And RCs, some of them, believe that some dead people have made unsolicited visits to the living – chiefly Mary. Nitpick: Mary didn’t die (according to official Roman Catholic dogma). At the end of her life she was [assumed both body and soul into heaven.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/assumption.shtml) So it isn’t quite speaking to the dead. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/16 "2013-09-18T13:11:27Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The Bible seems to take a dim view of ghosts-witness King Saul’s experience in necromancy. My understanding is that once death occurs, the soul moves on…and there is no reason for it to linger in the land of the living. So, does Christianity expressly forbid the contacting of the dead? Is this something that invites divine punishment? The question here seems to not be exactly the question in the title. “Christian Theology Question: No Possibility of the Dead Visiting The Living?” is actually answered in Matthew 27:52-53 \*“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” \* So yeah, seems like the dead visiting the living is quite possible. As for the living contacting the dead, which seems to be what you’re asking here. Some might interpret it as bad from Galatians: •Gal. 5:20-21, 20 idolatry, **sorcery** (also translated as witchcraft and some throw in doing drugs as well), enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." This pulpit commentary gets a bit more in depth of what is meant [here](http://biblehub.com/galatians/5-20.htm) > [@](#): > > Sorcery." The word φαρμακεία, originally denoting the use of drugs merely, means, sometimes, their use for poisoning; but this sense would not be very suitable here. But the nouns φαρμακός, φαρμακεύς, and φαρμακεία, like veneficus and veneficium in Latin, are also often used with reference to the employment of drugs in charms and incantations; and thence of the employment of black arts in general - magic, sorcery, witchcraft; Whether or not you or your church conflate communicating with the dead as sorcery or witchcraft is obviously IYHO. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/17 "2013-09-18T14:30:04Z")
It’s regrettably common to speak of praying _to_ saints in Catholic circles. A more accurate description would be praying _for_ a saint to intercede with God on your behalf. In non-Catholic circles, few Christians would think twice of saying to a friend, “My mom is sick; we could use your prayers.” Catholics simply extend this kind of request to the saints, persons who are in heaven and whose prayers are presumably as efficacious as those of us on Earth – and perhaps more so, for reasons of proximity if nothing else. But we don’t believe saints are Godlike or have supernatural powers in their own right (discounting the belief that the saint is an active listener in heaven). The saints are joining their prayers to ours, not stepping in to solve problems themselves. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/18 "2013-09-19T06:06:32Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Ok. I am no expert. Is there much difference between the two (mainstream and JW doctrines) in this case? Yes, most of the Christian world (Catholic, Orthodox, & Protestant) believe that the dead still have a conscious existence in Paradise or Hades. Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with Seventh-Day Adventists and Armstrongist Church of God adherents, hold that the dead are unconscious until Christ returns & raises them at the Millenium/Last Judgement. To the OP, us contacting the dead is Biblically forbidden, but nothing says they can’t come to us unbidden. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/19 "2013-09-19T14:01:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yes, most of the Christian world (Catholic, Orthodox, & Protestant) believe that the dead still have a conscious existence in Paradise or Hades. Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with Seventh-Day Adventists and Armstrongist Church of God adherents, hold that the dead are unconscious until Christ returns & raises them at the Millenium/Last Judgement. > > To the OP, us contacting the dead is Biblically forbidden, but nothing says they can’t come to us unbidden. Thanks for that info! ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068/20 "2013-09-19T14:31:25Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yes, most of the Christian world (Catholic, Orthodox, & Protestant) believe that the dead still have a conscious existence in Paradise or Hades. Jehovah’s Witnesses, along with Seventh-Day Adventists and Armstrongist Church of God adherents, hold that the dead are unconscious until Christ returns & raises them at the Millenium/Last Judgement. > > To the OP, us contacting the dead is Biblically forbidden, but nothing says they can’t come to us unbidden. I think there’s a hint in the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16: > [@](#): > > Luke 16 Verses 19 to 31 > > [19] “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. > [20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores, > [21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. > [22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; > [23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom. > [24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' [25] But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. > [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ > [27] And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' [29] But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ > [30] And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' [31] He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'” It’s not a terribly strong indication, but note that Abraham doesn’t say “Sorry, dude, we just can’t do that” or “No, we don’t do that kind of thing as a rule”, but rather “Even if we did send you back to warn your kin, it wouldn’t help.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-theology-question-no-possibility-of-the-dead-visiting-the-living/669068.md?page=2)