# "Christian values in America are under attack, these days"?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295 "2015-09-23T14:00:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/161 "2015-10-05T16:35:50Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > No… I am talking about the account of Einstein describing God in terms of life and death. > > Einstein is asked if he believes in God and he replies, ‘sure’. Then he was asked if people were good or bad. Then if God created man. If God were giver of life and death and so on to describe death as evil and then question God’s purpose for death if not evil in self. Last he ask if Einstein has ever seen God and how could we be certain he isn’ evil or if he exist at all if we have never seen him. > > Einstein cleverly rebukes by questioning if there was such thing as ‘cold’. The professor answers yes. Einstein reminds him that cold only exists in the absence of heat. You can have more heat, super heat, mega heat or no heat, but there was nothing we call ‘cold’. The lowest recorded temperature is -458 degrees (measured in heat). That cold was not the opposite of heat but rather the absence of it. He goes on to give the same intellect to the comparison of light and darkness. Stating that we only have darkness in the continual absence of light. Einstein continues with the following great argument: > > ‘Your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.’ When asked how he replies… ‘You are working on the premise of duality,’ the student explains… ‘You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but it has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.’ > > Continuing he states that teaching evolution would make the professor a preacher in that he teaches opinion and not fact. Finally getting the professor to accept faith as the tie between man and God and as the means to perpetual life Einstein concludes with this… > > ‘Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?’ Now uncertain, the professor responds, ‘Of course, there is. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.’ > > To this the student replied, ‘Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.’ When and where did this happen? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/162 "2015-10-05T18:41:46Z")
Wait, I thought the story was supposed to be told without names, and then at the end the story teller adds: “… and that student’s name was Albert Einsten.” Makes for a much better yarn that way. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/163 "2015-10-05T18:44:12Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Wait, I thought the story was supposed to be told without names, and then at the end the story teller adds: “… and that student’s name was Albert Einsten.” [“And now you know the rest…of the story”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QblkQ-J6zio) At least now we know the genesis of that story. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/164 "2015-10-05T20:33:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That account is false. It never happened. It is just a clever story someone made up to justify religious belief. Its not clever its true. Its scientific evidence that the unexplainable is somewhat explainable. Regardless who stated these facts they are indeed FACTS. Making the meaning of the words more powerful then who actually said them. And if you read Einsteins “quotes” (which there are many - contradicting other ones often) he expressed belief. He just never specified what is was he believed. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/165 "2015-10-05T21:01:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When and where did this happen? I don’t know. I wasn’t there. Less often than not do you see a parenthesized addition to an authors inspirational quote stating when and where those words were said. I assume this debate occurred either in Germany or in the United States (a university). Surely someone (if not the teacher or Einstein himself) journaled this. Ill admit there are many other similar articles (differing slightly in diction and sequence) some suggest an anonymous author, but there is very little congruency to support any of the opposing claims (most reports recall Einstein to bed the main subject. Regardless, these articles embody the same subject and concur in cause. Another parallel binding each of these differing articles is that there isn’t ONE single article I have found taking an opposing position or providing support to disprove the ideas collected from the discussion in question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/166 "2015-10-05T21:04:24Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > I don’t know. I wasn’t there. Less often than not do you see a parenthesized addition to an authors inspirational quote stating when and where those words were said. I assume this debate occurred either in Germany or in the United States (a university). Surely someone (if not the teacher or Einstein himself) journaled this. > Ill admit there are many other similar articles (differing slightly in diction and sequence) some suggest an anonymous author, but there is very little congruency to support any of the opposing claims (most reports recall Einstein to bed the main subject. > Regardless, these articles embody the same subject and concur in cause. Another parallel binding each of these differing articles is that there isn’t ONE single article I have found taking an opposing position or providing support to disprove the ideas collected from the discussion in question. In other words, popular religious urban legends are popular. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/167 "2015-10-05T21:15:00Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Its not clever its true. Well, you’re half right. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/168 "2015-10-05T21:23:32Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Its not clever its true. Its scientific evidence that the unexplainable is somewhat explainable. Regardless who stated these facts they are indeed FACTS. Evil is not a fact. It is just a term people use to describe each other’s inhumanity. God is not a fact. God is a religious belief some people need to cope with their own fear of death. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/169 "2015-10-05T23:16:43Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Its not clever its true. Its scientific evidence that the unexplainable is somewhat explainable. Regardless who stated these facts they are indeed FACTS. Making the meaning of the words more powerful then who actually said them. And if you read Einsteins “quotes” (which there are many - contradicting other ones often) he expressed belief. He just never specified what is was he believed. Einstein wrote in 1954: “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” [Albert Einstein, the Human Side: New Glimpses from His Archives - Albert Einstein - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=T5R7JsRRtoIC&pg=PA43&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false) Even while he lived, he dealt with people who falsely attributed particular religious beliefs to him. Here is Einstein’s response to someone who had heard a report that Einstein had been converted by a Jesuit priest (presumably to Catholicism): Einstein wrote in that case: “I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.” [http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/einstein-agnostic-atheism-religion](http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/einstein-agnostic-atheism-religion) It is only decent to respect Einstein’s beliefs and his disgust at falsehoods by refraining from repeating fake stories. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/170 "2015-10-05T23:25:09Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Its not clever its true. Its scientific evidence that the unexplainable is somewhat explainable. Regardless who stated these facts they are indeed FACTS. Making the meaning of the words more powerful then who actually said them. And if you read Einsteins “quotes” (which there are many - contradicting other ones often) he expressed belief. He just never specified what is was he believed. I’m not sure much of that piece is factual, let alone attributing it to Einstein, especially the problem of evil. And maybe you don’t recognize when Einstein was using metaphor which he often did on religious matters, and especially in public, where he often seemed to be a bit ambiguous which I can’t blame him considering the political and religious climate of the day. In private, he was a bit more explicit. I’ve read his autobiographical notes, personal letters, and various other places on the net. He drops his religious beliefs at the age of 12. He considered the word god nothing more than the product of human weakness, the biblical stories childish, and the Jewish religion one of the most childish of superstitions. Einstein, like the vast majority of leading scientists of today, don’t have a belief in any personal god. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/171 "2015-10-06T00:37:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Evil is not a fact. It is just a term people use to describe each other’s inhumanity. . . . But inhumanity is a fact, and thus so is evil. Many of us use the terms as synonyms. Seriously: how do you arrive at “Evil is not a fact?” School shootings, rape, arson, bombings of hospitals in war zones… Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/172 "2015-10-06T01:43:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In other words, popular religious urban legends are popular. If religion were restricted to one urban area Id say you were correct. Only popular would be an understatement. Relevant would be a better word. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/173 "2015-10-06T02:18:18Z")
You’re being grammatically incorrect. You are saying that an adjective is a noun when you say that evil is or isn’t a fact. It would be correct if something were an evil fact or that our proving the existence of evil relies on fact/s, but they are not one in the same. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/174 "2015-10-06T02:22:40Z")
Evil can also be a noun. When a rapist assaults a victim, evil has come into existence. ---
**Author:** ![tafowler87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@tafowler87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafowler87)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/175 "2015-10-06T03:15:15Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > I’m not sure much of that piece is factual, let alone attributing it to Einstein, especially the problem of evil. And maybe you don’t recognize when Einstein was using metaphor which he often did on religious matters, and especially in public, where he often seemed to be a bit ambiguous which I can’t blame him considering the political and religious climate of the day. > > In private, he was a bit more explicit. I’ve read his autobiographical notes, personal letters, and various other places on the net. He drops his religious beliefs at the age of 12. He considered the word god nothing more than the product of human weakness, the biblical stories childish, and the Jewish religion one of the most childish of superstitions. > > Einstein, like the vast majority of leading scientists of today, don’t have a belief in any personal god. Einstein formulated an unseen variable (energy). He teetered between doctrinal faith and man’s free will and also searched diligently for universal truth. He argued that sovereignty as a single entity was more likely than that of a personal God. He still gave assertion that God was a deity and a comprehensive truth in nature. Einstein may have abandoned the title God, but he subjectively argued the existence of a deity and directly addressed God many times. Einstein was self proclaimed as a “religious non-believer”. He ignored biblical doctrine by reason of uncertainty and his philosophy was mad relative in terms of an afterlife. He was “agnostic” if anything (because his view of God was based in experience rather than the support of scripture and he denied doctrinal rule). Science and God are very commonly supportive of each other because a more clear relationship becomes evident when both are defined in parallels. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/176 "2015-10-06T05:15:50Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > …when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. That is so unlike Einstein that I have to call B.S. (an Einstein scholar who wishes to remain anonymous;)). Okay, he says it’s another case of lying for Jesus. Lying, to be clear, is the exact opposite of telling the truth, not merely an absence of truth. Whoever told you that story, or whatever book you read it in, is deliberately deceiving you. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/177 "2015-10-06T15:26:41Z")
> [@tafowler87](#): > > Einstein formulated an unseen variable (energy). He teetered between doctrinal faith and man’s free will and also searched diligently for universal truth. He argued that sovereignty as a single entity was more likely than that of a personal God. He still gave assertion that God was a deity and a comprehensive truth in nature. Einstein may have abandoned the title God, but he subjectively argued the existence of a deity and directly addressed God many times. Einstein was self proclaimed as a “religious non-believer”. He ignored biblical doctrine by reason of uncertainty and his philosophy was mad relative in terms of an afterlife. He was “agnostic” if anything (because his view of God was based in experience rather than the support of scripture and he denied doctrinal rule). > Science and God are very commonly supportive of each other because a more clear relationship becomes evident when both are defined in parallels. Einstein identified with both agnostic and atheist, mostly the former, some of the letters I presented in the link express that, and he was quite adamant in not believing in any personal God. Since you know that, why was you earlier trying to make him out as a believer? He also didn’t teether between faith and free will, he was a determinist. And what he wasn’t agnostic about was the Jewish or Christian religion, he called it for the superstition it was. Nor did he believe in an afterlife, he thought that was merely man’s ego getting in the way. So you’ve went from Einstein rebutting his college professor, telling us we should seek out his proof of God more (he does no such thing), to now saying basically, regardless of who have said it, these are indeed facts. Which actually isn’t the case either, there are factual inconsistencies and the arguments are specious throughout, mostly playing on semantics. But since you’ve seem to come to realize now how this story was made up and was attributed to Einstein, ask yourself as a Christian, couldn’t this very thing and the stories attributed to Jesus have been made up too? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/178 "2015-10-06T19:01:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Evil is not a fact. It is just a term people use to describe each other’s inhumanity. Well, then it does exist, no? The same way a pencil exists, as it is just a term people use to describe a wooden writing utensil with a lead core. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/179 "2015-10-06T19:05:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You want to give a cite for this story? Because it sounds to me like a bit of Christian fiction about the foolish atheist professor and smart Christian student with Einstein crammed in somehow. > Einstein very clearly stated that he used God as a metaphor and that he did not believe in the Western God. I think this is correct. But why is it important that he not be referring to the Western God? The much larger question is the one that goes to a grander philosophy, i.e., an atheistic view vs a God-centric view. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295/180 "2015-10-06T19:57:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, then it does exist, no? The same way a pencil exists, as it is just a term people use to describe a wooden writing utensil with a lead core. Sure, if you ascribe no more power to evil than as a synonym for the inhumanity of humans. It has no will, it cannot be prayed away, it has no malign plans for people. Unfortunately, some people think it is an sentient force that is out to get them. That does not exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christian-values-in-america-are-under-attack-these-days/732295.md?page=10)