# Christianity a lie according to Jesus? Discuss. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075 "2001-11-02T05:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075/41 "2001-11-11T18:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NiceGuyJack \* > \*\*_Communism_ led to tremendous suffering and death. To conclude from this that _atheism_ was the cause suggests that you know little of Soviet history. \*\* To conclude otherwise is to demonstrate that one does not understand the philosophy behind Communism. Moreover, many of these people were killed \*_for worshipping God_. Just read Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn’s works, if you don’t believeme. These people were killed because they refused to embrace atheism. Atheism was one of the most **basic** tenets of these Communist regimes, so while it was not the sole cause of this suffering, it was most certainly one of the causes. BTW, contrary to your statement, nobody said atheism was **the** cause of their deaths. Rather, it was one of the causes. Atheism was one of the causes of communism, insofar as it was a vital tenet thereo, and communism directly caused these peoples’ deaths. Moreover, if we are to apply your logic consistently, then one should not blame Christian teaching for, say, the Crusades. One would have to blame the earthly governments for these atrocities, rather than Christianity itself. In fact, one would have a much stronger basis for shifting this blame, since Christian teachings run directly _counter_ to the actions of the Crusaders. It is heartily disingenuous to blame the Christian Church for those atrocities, yet absolve atheism of the atrocities that came about from its worldview. In fact, it is obvious that the “Christian” atrocities were committed in direct disobedience to God’s Word. In contrast, while many atheists would lament the communist death toll, there is nothing in atheism _per se_ which condemns these murders. Once again, I feel I must emphasize that this is not meant as a condemnation of atheism itself. Rather, it is merely meant to emphasize that the aforementioned argument for rejecting Christianity is ultimately self-defeating. I know I’ve said this before, but experience has shown that careless readers are bound to pounce upon such material and misconstrue it, without properly understanding its purpose. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075/42 "2001-11-11T18:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NiceGuyJack \* > \*\*Your position that _atheism_ does not condemn communism shows that you lack an understanding for what atheism is. It is a lack of belief. For _atheism_ to have a stance on any subject, it would require organization and appointed spokes persons. \*\* First off, it is inaccurate to say that atheism is merely a lack of belief. Some atheists would certainly say that, but others would say that it’s an explicit belief that there is NO God. Still others would say that it’s the belief that there’s not enough evidence to warrant God’s existence. And second, your very posting **substantiates** what I said. You are correct in pointing out that atheism does NOT, and can NOT, take a stand on communism. This is **entirely consistent** with what I said before – that Christian teaching condemns the atrocities committed in its name, whereas atheism does not. I’m not saying that atheism should, because it clearly can not. I’m merely pointing out that if someone says, “Christian teaching should be rejected because of the horros committed in its name,” Christians can certainly use this argument in its own defense. In contrast, atheism can not, which **further** demonstrates that such an argument is self-defeating. (Note that I say that _Christian teaching_ condemns the atrocities, BTW. This is not dependent on any “organization and appointed spokes persons [sic],” to use your wording. Rather, the fundamental teachings _themselves_ are in direct opposition to those actions. ---
**Author:** ![kgriffey79](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@kgriffey79](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kgriffey79)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075/43 "2001-11-11T23:12:53Z")
See, Christ is not Jesus’ last name. He was Jesus of Nazareth. Christ means, the Savior. He was Jesus THE Christ. He meant, that other people would claim to be Christ or savior and not be believe them because they are blasphemers. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075/44 "2001-11-12T23:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > **Dale, > Jesus does want us to make known His name and the Bible. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. > Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: > Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.** What you are referring to is commonly called the “Great Commission,” (a term which troubles me). However, it needs to be followed in a healthy way, in conjunction with Matt. 6. All too often, people seek their own praise or condemn others, which brings us to fundies… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > **How do fundies act that you see as un-Christian?** Look up “Pharisee” in your concordance and you’ll find the answer to that. I saw the 700 Club when Falwell’s famous quote was originally stated and he would have been okay if he had said “WE” are to blame for this, but with the word “they” he made himself an accuser with no humility, which made him nothing more than a snob. Fundies want to force their attitudes and beliefs onto others. Jesus didn’t work this way. He was friendly to the most sinful peple and kept company with them. When they left he said “Go and sin no more,” but he never ried to force them to do anything. They saw he was good and wanted to be like him, that is letting your light shine, not telling people they are wrong or frightening them to believe as you. The people responsible for making me want to be a Christian have no idea of the influence they have. I want to give them praise, but their very nature is not to edify themselves. A fundie cannot be truly humble and still be a fundie. Someone once asked a thought-provoking question (and I wish I knew the source), “Are people seeing that you are a Christian, or are they seeing Christ in you?” That’s what it’s all about. My gay, pagan, witch friends are friends of mine because they respect my ability to mutually respect them. I never condemn them, I respect them and learn from them just as they learn from me. Do I hope they become Christians? Sure, but they probably think the same of me when they ask “How can you stand being a Christian when you have to hang out with _those people_?” ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075/45 "2001-11-13T02:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JubilationTCornpone \* > \*\*First off, it is inaccurate to say that atheism is merely a lack of belief. Some atheists would certainly say that, but others would say that it’s an explicit belief that there is NO God. Still others would say that it’s the belief that there’s not enough evidence to warrant God’s existence. \*\* In your first two definitions, you are stating the same thing. In the last definition you are explaining the reason. I think most atheists would agree to all three except for one minor point. Atheists donft _believe_ there is no God, they _know_ there is no God as there is no evidence to prove otherwise. If for some miraculous reason some evidence were to present itself, then in light of evidence an atheist would then have to _believe_ there is no God and a Christian (assuming God is a Christian God) in face of evidence would then be able to claim that they _know_ therefs a God. Until that evidence presents itself, you have to _believe_ in God, whereas I _know_ there is no God. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JubilationTCornpone \* > \*\*And second, your very posting **substantiates** what I said. You are correct in pointing out that atheism does NOT, and can NOT, take a stand on communism. This is **entirely consistent** with what I said before – that Christian teaching condemns the atrocities committed in its name, whereas atheism does not. I’m not saying that atheism should, because it clearly cannot. I’m merely pointing out that if someone says, “Christian teaching should be rejected because of the horros committed in its name,” Christians can certainly use this argument in its own defense. In contrast, atheism can not, which **further** demonstrates that such an argument is self-defeating. > > (Note that I say that _Christian teaching_ condemns the atrocities, BTW. This is not dependent on any “organization and appointed spokes persons [sic],” to use your wording. Rather, the fundamental teachings _themselves_ are in direct opposition to those actions. \*\* For atheism to be able to condemn or in general have an opinion about an issue, there necessarily must be organization with some sort of manifesto or scripture. Atheism is none of that for it can not by its very nature be so. As an individual and an atheist, I do condemn all atrocities committed by communists and religious fanatics alike. However, I can not speak for all atheists. Now in regards to communism, Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels were the founders of communism, and they produced a manifesto. In principle this manifesto did replace the bible in the Soviet Union. However, atheism was far from the corner stone of communist philosophy. In this thread, Fredrick Engels has written a sort of Q and A, which might be helpful for you to understand what communism was all about. Principles of Communism [http://csf.colorado.edu/mirrors/marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm](http://csf.colorado.edu/mirrors/marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) The very first question is: What is communism? Fredrick wrote: > [@](#): > > \*\*Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat. \*\* The Communist Manifesto [http://csf.colorado.edu/mirrors/marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm](http://csf.colorado.edu/mirrors/marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm) In the Communist Manifesto written by Marx and Engels they identify the bourgeoisie and the proletariat as follows: > [@](#): > > \*\* By bourgeoisie is meant the class of modern capitalists, owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labor. > By proletariat, the class of modern wage laborers who, having no means of production of their own, are reduced to selling their labor power in order to live. \*\* Atheism is rarely mentioned if at all. However, the two founders clearly lump the Pope with the Tsar and other bourgeoisie as the oppressors of the proletariat. The flaw in Marx and Engelfs system was that it allowed the elevation to power of despots such as Stalin, something I am sure they would have been devastated by. I have now presented you with the facts. I would recommend that you take a moment to read through the basic ideas of communism. You should find that atheism in communism was a very minor point and the whole picture was the liberation of the oppressed. Itfs ironic that it just replaced one set of oppressors with another, but that is a different story. If after you have studied what communism is about and come back with another claim that atheism = communism, then you have selectively decided to ignore the facts. Just keep in mind, atheism has yet to produce a suicidal fanatic. Jack [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-a-lie-according-to-jesus-discuss/91075.md?page=2)