# Christianity and homosexuality - please explain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921 "2004-05-06T22:24:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/101 "2004-09-21T01:34:52Z")
Well, Roger, based on what we have of His words, then. Show whee in His words where He condemned homosexuality or even out of wedlock sex? Doc- Just here in this thread there is “some doubts and much arguement”:dubious:. And if you say a bunch of Talmudic scholars agree 100% on ANYTHING without quibbles and such, you’re smoking something. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/102 "2004-09-21T01:58:59Z")
My misgivings about the notion that Jesus-was-“open and forgiving”-whereas-Paul-was-not are not restricted to the issue of homosexuality. Indeed, you would appear not to be restricting that idea to Jesus’s views on homosexuality, since he is not recorded as having given any. Jesus was tough on all sin. If a Christian believes that two men having sex together is a sin (to God), then it’s a bit hazardous to suggest that Jesus would be open on the matter. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/103 "2004-09-21T02:01:48Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > My misgivings about the notion that Jesus-was-“open and forgiving”-whereas-Paul-was-not are not restricted to the issue of homosexuality. Indeed, you would appear not to be restricting that idea to Jesus’s views on homosexuality, since he is not recorded as having given any. > > Jesus was tough on all sin. If a Christian believes that two men having sex together is a sin (to God), then it’s a bit hazardous to suggest that Jesus would be open on the matter. That’s all. If a Christian believes something, that proves that Jesus believed it? That’s putting the cart before the horse, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/104 "2004-09-21T02:25:00Z")
Naughty, naughty, Dio! I think you can read what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/105 "2004-09-21T02:31:47Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > My misgivings about the notion that Jesus-was-“open and forgiving”-whereas-Paul-was-not are not restricted to the issue of homosexuality. Indeed, you would appear not to be restricting that idea to Jesus’s views on homosexuality, since he is not recorded as having given any. > > Jesus was tough on all sin. If a Christian believes that two men having sex together is a sin (to God), then it’s a bit hazardous to suggest that Jesus would be open on the matter. That’s all. Well, at this point you need to figure out what was sin in Jesus’s view – no doubt in my mind that He disapproved of sin, especially that of the Pharisees – and what His take on it would be. The suggestion that the centurion’s “boy” was not a servant in his house, but rather his beloved catamite, has been made. If true – and it’s a pretty far stretch, founded totally on the use of “boy” to describe the relationship AFAIK – this would represent the one time that Jesus was known to have encountered a gay person. And his comment is revealing. Swapping back over to hetero-sex, we **know** what he thought of sex outside marriage, and those who condemned it, from the story of the woman taken in adultery. (And let me say that I have a nice Pit thread prepared for the person who quotes His last five words to justify their condemning it as sin without referencing the rest of the story.) And clearly, He was much more lenient towards human failings than towards the self-righteous – a point that seems to have escaped the vast majority of those who claim to follow Him. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/106 "2004-09-21T02:38:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Swapping back over to hetero-sex, we **know** what he thought of sex outside marriage, and those who condemned it, from the story of the woman taken in adultery. (And let me say that I have a nice Pit thread prepared for the person who quotes His last five words to justify their condemning it as sin without referencing the rest of the story.) > > And clearly, He was much more lenient towards human failings than towards the self-righteous – a point that seems to have escaped the vast majority of those who claim to follow Him. Going from memory, his last five words were “Go, and sin no more”. This does I feel give a nice insight into Jesus’s views on sin. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/107 "2004-09-21T02:57:34Z")
The problem is that you have not shown that Jesus thought homosexuality was a sin. You should also know that the bible does not condemn all sex outside of marriage, at least not for men. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/108 "2004-09-21T03:01:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The problem is that you have not shown that Jesus thought homosexuality was a sin. Well, **Dio** , that’s because it’s not something that can be shown! > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You should also know that the bible does not condemn all sex outside of marriage, at least not for men. According to the new covenant? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/109 "2004-09-21T03:10:21Z")
The “New Covenant” is about how sin is forgiven, not about what defines it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/110 "2004-09-21T03:26:33Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Going from memory, his last five words were “Go, and sin no more”. This does I feel give a nice insight into Jesus’s views on sin. Good memory, if selective. Tell you what – go **read** the story, and report back on what **else** Jesus said, and why John might have chosen to include that anecdote in his Gospel. (Yeah, I know I sound supercilious in that – but I’d rather not Pit you unless you wilfully misrepresent our Lord in public. So do what I ask, huh?) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/111 "2004-09-21T03:36:04Z")
I know! He said “Who condemns you?” She said “No one.” ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/112 "2004-09-21T03:37:18Z")
SHould I have put that in a spoiler box? Forgive me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/113 "2004-09-21T03:42:02Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Swapping back over to hetero-sex, we **know** what he thought of sex outside marriage, and those who condemned it, from the story of the woman taken in adultery. (And let me say that I have a nice Pit thread prepared for the person who quotes His last five words to justify their condemning it as sin without referencing the rest of the story. Um. I know this. He said . . . “Let Oliver Stone sin with the cast.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/114 "2004-09-21T03:44:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Um. I know this. He said . . . > > “Let Oliver Stone sin with the cast.” You’re paying for the therapy I’m going to need because of the brainflash of Stone and Kevin Costner gettin’ it on… ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/115 "2004-09-21T03:46:10Z")
For those interested in reading the story of the woman caught in adultery, [here it is](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+8&language=english&version=NIV). Jesus is fazed not a wit by the tricks of the Pharisees, indicates that the new covenant is among them (physically, indeed, for he embodies it), challenges them for their hypocrisy, does not condemn the woman and commands her to change her lifestyle. He demonstrates a sharp intellect, equity, judgement, insight and tough love. Love your ‘pit’ jibe, by the way - which was taken in the way you intended it to be. It got me to thinking that if Jesus were to come on the boards, he would receive the mother and father of all pittings. Some things never change. ---
**Author:** ![supervenusfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@supervenusfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supervenusfreak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/116 "2004-09-21T03:46:31Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You’re paying for the therapy I’m going to need because of the brainflash of Stone and Kevin Costner gettin’ it on… I do not remember that scene from _JFK_ . ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/117 "2004-09-21T03:48:27Z")
> [@supervenusfreak](#): > > I do not remember that scene from _JFK_ . There was a second cameraman on the grassy knoll. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/118 "2004-09-21T06:00:00Z")
Poly- Book,Chapter, Verse- please? Centurion story, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/119 "2004-09-21T06:18:36Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > For those interested in reading the story of the woman caught in adultery, [here it is](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+8&language=english&version=NIV). > > Jesus is fazed not a wit by the tricks of the Pharisees, indicates that the new covenant is among them (physically, indeed, for he embodies it), challenges them for their hypocrisy, does not condemn the woman and commands her to change her lifestyle. > He demonstrates a sharp intellect, equity, judgement, insight and tough love. I don’t see any “tough love” or “judgement.” Just the opposite, in fact. I see unconditional acceptance and an admonition against moral judgement. > [@](#): > > Love your ‘pit’ jibe, by the way - which was taken in the way you intended it to be. It got me to thinking that if Jesus were to come on the boards, he would receive the mother and father of all pittings. Some things never change. Who would notice one more bleeding-heart liberal around here? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921/120 "2004-09-21T06:28:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Poly- Book,Chapter, Verse- please? Centurion story, that is. **DrDeth** , the story referred to by **Polycarp** , the healing of the centurion’s servant/slave, is found in two gospels, [Matthew (8: 5-13)](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+8&language=english&version=NIV) and [Luke (7: 1-10)](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+7&language=english&version=NIV). In Matthew the word ‘pais’, which means boy, is used, while in the parallel passage in Luke, ‘doulos’, the word for slave, is used. Some people have taken this to indicate that the young man was the Roman centurion’s male lover. Perhaps unsurprisingly, not many Biblical scholars take this very seriously. In the interests of full disclosure, I ought perhaps to mention that I studied Greek (and Latin) to university level. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-homosexuality-please-explain/243921.md?page=7)