# Christianity and Love, Part III **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255 "2000-07-12T00:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/201 "2000-07-24T04:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > > Christ accepts us as we are, regardless, when we come to Him, and _then_ He changes us into something brand new that we weren’t before. The only conclusion I can draw after reading this statement, coupled with your “no gay person can be Christian” statement, is that you presume to know what Christ says in his personal relationship with gay Christians; that is, that it’s a lie. Sorry, **FriendofGod** , but in my opinion, you just keep digging yourself deeper. Go talk to your god about your own personal relationship with him and maybe he’ll reveal a clue or two to you. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/202 "2000-07-24T11:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting one Lib. You could actually substitute _any_ sin there – “would it be sinful if you were forced to say a curseword” or “to kiss a woman who isn’t your wife” or “to kill someone” and on and on. > > The short answer is “I don’t know”. I tend to think God leans on the side of mercy in a case like this … I mean it’s all about what’s in your _heart_. You don’t “want” to do these things, you’re being forced. On the flip side, there _are_ actions God deems sinful (adultery, lying, etc). And on the flip flip side (??) you really _can’t_ be forced to do _anything_ in this scenario. You could refuse and accept the consequences. > > This reminds me of the classic scenario Christians in countries like China have faced during the last century. They literally _HAVE_ had a gun forced in their face, but in their case it was the _ultimate_ issue – betray God or die. In that situation, despite the fear, I think a believer would be willing to die for their faith (a la Cassie Bernall). > > I know there are many who would apply this same principle to many of the issues I just listed and the one you said. In other words, they would refuse to do the act and accept the consequence of death, which, of course, isn’t much of a consequence since they’re going to heaven! > > Just as a clarification – obviously there _are_ situations where you are _literally_ forced into things – ie, rape. Obviously in that case the victim is totally innocent. > > Interesting topic Lib. What are your thoughts? For what little it might be worth, my thoughts are that we should stop straining gnats and swallowing camels. The KJV bible lists 142 abominations. If you want to condemn sucking penises, you’d better not eat any pork (Leviticus 11:7) or rabbit (Leviticus 11:6). If we cannot make a simple judgement about whether kissing a man at gunpoint is a sin (_The short answer is “I don’t know”._ — FriendofGod), then perhaps we ought to leave God’s business to Him and go about our own. Our business is to love Him and our neighbor, even if he touched a man’s penis or a swan’s carcass (Leviticus 11:24). If, in the end, God will turn to you for advice in His judgements, then by all means hone your skills. Otherwise, get out of this devil’s playpen as quickly as you can. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/203 "2000-07-24T15:41:28Z")
**Lib** , amen. **Friend of God** , I’m feeling very sad for you. You have as much as said that you will not even contemplate that you might be mistaken. To dismiss me out of hand because you refuse to listen is insulting to me. That I can deal with. But to refuse to contextualize or even think about your Bible, your God, your beliefs, is insulting to God. You _do not_ have the right to refuse His gifts! And that is exactly what you are doing when you refuse to think or even listen. You have told me that the reason my commentary is wrong is simply because I’m wrong. You think it’s clear, when it patently is _not_, and yet you refuse to explain _why_ you think it’s clear. It’s your way only, huh? You alone understand the Bible and God. And nothing anyone here says will change that arrogance and hypocrisy. I’m finished with you, **FoG** , except to pray that the Lord will open your heart for once. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/204 "2000-07-24T20:03:45Z")
\*\*Andros reiterated an earlier request to FoG: > [@](#): > > I believe that the Bible does not hold homosexual sex or love as sin, and I’ve provided verses and commentary in demonstration of this. I continue to await your rebuttal to my commentary. Where am I wrong? And FoG responded: > [@](#): > > I want you to know that I _did_ read your commentary the first time you posted it and I just re-read it. Truthfully, I didn’t (and still don’t) want to spend the time necessary to do a point-for-point rebuttal, especially now that I am _really_ wanting to move away from this topic. _If_ it weren’t a topic that evoked such strong emotions and distracted from my main message it would be an interesting debate, but I don’t think it’s worth it. > > Just to give you _something_ (since you were so persistant in bringing up the rather thorough commentary you made), I will tell you this. A year ago a lesbian I met online directed me to an entire website that was _VERY_ in-depth in it’s attempt to defend homosexuality. It took _every_ scripture reference and had paragraphs and paragraphs of points about why it didn’t apply or didn’t mean what it actually said. > > While _some_ of the points were mildly interesting, the vast majority were a convoluted attempt to wriggle around very clear and easy to understand statements. Now I will say this - a _few_ of the passages you quoted, I’ve never even heard of as being a supposed commentary on homosexuality and I would agree that it’s _stretching_ it to somehow apply it to that topic. > > But suffice it to say, to me the Bible’s message is _very_ clear on this subject and totally unambiguous. I’m _sure_ you’d like to engage in a point-for-point debate and I kind of would too … but again, this topic causes _so_ much emotional angst that I have no desire to continue discussing it at this time. Sorry andros. Without being obnoxious or a sower of dissent, I think our varying understandings of exactly what is being proscribed, how the proscriptions fit into individuals’ lives, is precisely the original topic of this thread (or to be precise, its ancestor). And I do believe that those viewpoints have been dealt with at some length, though not exhaustively. Although it does arouse strong feelings, I think it might be worth going through them in detail, with the idea that FoG, Andros, etc. post what each understands them to mean, one by one. There are things to be learned here, for all involved, including me in particular. I think that we would need, if we do explore this, to assume that FoG is not necessarily condemning particular acts by stating that his understanding of the Bible is that God condemns them than I would be calling for outlawing oral sex by stating that the state I lives in criminalizes it. Is this acceptable to all concerned? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/205 "2000-07-24T20:15:12Z")
Hmmm… I was going to hold out until “Christianity and Love Part 17” to mention this – but how about that chastity? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/206 "2000-07-24T20:28:36Z")
As I recall, JM, she came out a few years ago and Cher, after some initial problems, was quite supportive. She has a book out about the experience which I haven’t read. You may also recall that she got herself in hot water two years ago for a perfectly valid criticism of the Ellen show that was poorly phrased. 🙂 On a more serious note, I do have two comments: (1) as understood historically, _chastity_ is abstention from sex outside marriage. For someone prohibited from marriage, it is equivalent to _celibacy_, or total absention, which we both know to be defined as a charism given to specific people (unfortunately, not everyone that the Catholic Church would require it of). To clarify this for others, when one undertakes a task for which a normal healthy sex life would be an interference, according to dogma, God gives the gift of being able to abstain from sex without significant emotional strain. There is, to the best evidence I have, a very small minority to whom this gift has been given, of **any** sexual orientation. (2) On abstention until marriage, the chastity expected of most straight people by traditionalist understanding, SanibelMan has a quite interesting thread going on this board. A Q.V. is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/207 "2000-07-24T20:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **For someone prohibited from marriage, it is equivalent to _celibacy_, or total absention, which we both know to be defined as a charism given to specific people (unfortunately, not everyone that the Catholic Church would require it of).** Well, that does underline the split between the Catholic and Free Spirit Churches. The Free Spirits reject the priesthood (the Benedictine heresy). The Catholic Church rejects the idea that the poor should be allowed to marry and/or live under authority to God rather than a bishop (the Free Spirit heresy). So I guess if you are poor and gay, you’re really in deep water… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/208 "2000-07-24T23:24:20Z")
Huh??? I’m afraid I need clarification here. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2000, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/209 "2000-07-24T23:37:57Z")
Esprix, Lib, Polycarp, and andros … If you guys want to drag this on further, it’s a free country, but I will not be commenting on this subject anymore. I stated why a few posts back and I won’t repeat it again. If you really want a good summary of my view, read the very first post on C&L Part III. andros: I never said your commentary was wrong “just because”. As I said, I believe there are solid reasons, but I have no desire to drag this debate out. Sorry if that disappoints you. Despite what you think, I am under no obligation to defend my beliefs or debate with you just because you happen to want to right now. You said "And that is exactly what you are doing when you refuse to think or even listen. " You are defining “refusing to think or even listen” as “refusing to discuss the particular topic andros wants to discuss with me right now”. Sorry but I don’t think I will go by that definintion. And you don’t have to worry about God being insulted andros … I believe He is the one leading me away from debating this topic. He knows I could go for hours on end but it would accomplish nothing. I would be wasting my time. Polycarp: _IF_ I was going to continue, your assumption is what I hope people would start with. _However_, if you notice, you are one of the _few_ people who actually reads what I say _carefully_ enough to see where I’m actually coming from. Very few others seem willing to do that. They read what they want to read and lash out. With each post, people are getting ruder and I don’t really want to be a part of that type of discussion. I think if everyone _slowed_ _down_ and read carefully they would understand better what I’m saying. Debate away if you want, but I’m bowing out of this one. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/210 "2000-07-25T00:23:44Z")
:sigh: **Friend** , we’ve always known _what_ you believe. That’s never been an issue. I’ve wanted to find out _why_ you believe what you do. Why is that so difficult to grasp? **Poly** , thanks for the thought. But as deeply as I’ve read **FoG** ’s posts (and his assertions to the contrary, I most certainly have), it is clear that he practices the same single-mindedness he accuses me of when he refuses to read mine. Perhaps he will return in the future when his and our frustrations have diminished and we can discuss Christianity and Love agian. Perhaps he will learn how to reconcile his religion and his intellect (Adam?). My apologies to all for letting my frustration get the better of me. The bruises on my forehead will undoubtedly heal up quickly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/211 "2000-07-26T14:38:05Z")
**FriendofGod** , the discussion ends if someone on one side of the issue declines to continue his participation; so, in effect, this thread is dead (unless someone else takes up your cause). I do have one last question - did you get anything out of all of this? If so, what? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/212 "2000-07-26T16:48:46Z")
The main thing I learned is this Esprix … not to allow myself to get sidetracked in the future by an interesting but distracting debate. I also realized that this audience is different from what I’m used to and I need to adjust my _focus_ accordingly. Esprix let me say this “in closing” as it were … despite what you and others might believe, I have one desire only in coming to this bulletin board … to try to expose to people the _true_ heart of God so that they might be more open to having a relationship with Him. What people choose to _do_ with that is out of my hands, but I want to do my part in encouraging people toward Christ. I am praying and thinking about a topic to start possibly later this weekend, and it’s totally different from the one I originally planned to start. Again, God is helping me to see where you guys are coming from and is showing me the focus I need to have to get the message across better. This topic is called “Christianity and Love”. Christianity is the ultimate love story. It is God, _so_ _deeply_ in love with us, that He sent His one and only Son to die for us so we could have a loving relationship with Him forever. That is the essence of Christianity right there. God _loves_ you Esprix and wants you to get to know Him. Really! He doesn’t bite ;). I hope sincerely that you and the others on this board will stay open to that possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/213 "2000-07-26T17:02:14Z")
**FoG:** \*God _loves_ you Esprix and wants you to get to know Him. Really! \* But **Esprix** assures us that, as a Unitarian, he already knows and loves God. Why are you contradicting him on this? Good luck with your next thread, **FoG** , but be prepared for lots more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/214 "2000-07-26T17:05:02Z")
Friend of God said: > [@](#): > > God _loves_ you Esprix and wants you to get to know Him. Really! He doesn’t bite :). Unless, of course, you happen to believe in one of those Satanic religions like Buddhism. Then you get sent to Hell for all eternity. But other than that, God doesn’t bite. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/215 "2000-07-26T17:09:05Z")
**Friend** > [@](#): > > I have one desire only in coming to this bulletin board … to try to expose to people the _true_ heart of God so that they might be more open to having a relationship with Him. What people choose to _do_ with that is out of my hands, but I want to do my part in encouraging people toward Christ. How sad when, from good intentions, we achieve the opposite of our intent. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” — Jesus (Matthew 23:15) > [@](#): > > I am praying and thinking about a topic to start possibly later this weekend, and it’s totally different from the one I originally planned to start. Again, God is helping me to see where you guys are coming from and is showing me the focus I need to have to get the message across better. I pray that your message will be the same as His: that you love us (John 15:9); that you do not judge us (John 8:15); and that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter into heaven before those who teach the law (Matthew 21:31). > [@](#): > > This topic is called “Christianity and Love”. Christianity is the ultimate love story. It is God, _so_ _deeply_ in love with us, that He sent His one and only Son to die for us so we could have a loving relationship with Him forever. That is the essence of Christianity right there. Be that essence. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/216 "2000-07-26T17:13:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > \*\*Unless, of course, you happen to believe in one of those Satanic religions like Buddhism. Then you get sent to Hell for all eternity. > > But other than that, God doesn’t bite. \*\* That, simply, is not God’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/217 "2000-07-26T17:28:29Z")
I firmly believe a number of things that are all the subject for debates, I’m sure, but among them are these: 1. That **FriendofGod** seriously means what he said in his last post, and, in his mindset, considers that all of us, regardless of our personal journeys with Christ or lack thereof, would benefit from knowing Him as he knows Him. 2. That **FriendofGod** has received a “revelation” (metaphorically) from seeing devout liberal Christians who are as committed as he but not bound by the same legalistic code as trammels his efforts to show Christ’s love. I look forward to seeing his next thread. 3. That God in his infinite mercy has provided for those who sincerely seek for Him in other ways, such as Buddhism. The efforts put forth in this regard by a sincere Theravedin monk and John of the Cross are not anywhere so far apart as one might think. And, because I have made a hairy nuisance of myself from Part I page 3 onward, I’d like to close this out with one particular quote. As most of you know, I took my screen name from the first Bishop of Smyrna, who was converted as a teen by St. John the Beloved Apostle in his old age. And that Polycarp wrote that when John was on his deathbed, he and others gathered around to glean one last morsel of wisdom from the last living Apostle, the man who knew Jesus best. They asked him for his final thought, something to preserve down the ages to encapsulate what Christianity ought to mean, and he answered: > [@](#): > > Little children, love one another. _Exeunt omnes, gaudientes_ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/218 "2000-07-26T17:37:48Z")
As a Melancholy-Phlegmatic, like John the Beloved, I am thrilled to learn those were his last words. Thanks, Poly. Well, this is page 5, so the thread might crash at any moment. Would the last to leave please turn out the lights? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/219 "2000-07-26T18:14:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > > The main thing I learned is this Esprix … not to allow myself to get sidetracked in the future by an interesting but distracting debate. I also realized that this audience is different from what I’m used to and I need to adjust my _focus_ accordingly. That’s it? How sad. Guess everyone failed in their respective conversions all 'round. > [@](#): > > God _loves_ you Esprix and wants you to get to know Him. Really! He doesn’t bite ;). I hope sincerely that you and the others on this board will stay open to that possibility. Well, **Friend** , thanks to your efforts, I am happy to report that I will never, ever worship the same god you do. Period. But thanks for the prayers anyway. 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2000, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/220 "2000-07-26T18:20:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > > But **Esprix** assures us that, as a Unitarian, he already knows and loves God. Why are you contradicting him on this? Because I’m a _practicing homosexual_, **Kim**. Since **FoG** knows very well that I could never, ever have a real relationship with his god and still be (let alone want to be) a _practicing homosexual_, because that’s clearly not what his god wants, then any alleged relationship I may state I have with God is obviously a lie on my part. Duh! :rolleyes: Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255.md?page=12)