# Christianity and Love, Part III **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255 "2000-07-12T00:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/121 "2000-07-18T14:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > > (And of course, Esprix and Dr. Boyfriend cannot marry legally anywhere, although some churches will celebrate their union before God and in Vermont they can create a “civil union”… I just want to clarify that although Dr. Boyfriend and I have been dating for over a year now, we have no intention at this point of making a lifetime commitment. We are, however, dating exclusively and spending a lot of time together. My life, alas, is kind of up in the air right now, so we’re holding off making any big decisions until I figure out what’s right for me. However, if you want to keep using us as an example of a gay couple and extrapolate out a long-term relationship, go right ahead, but I just wanted to clarify that. Never mind, carry on… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/122 "2000-07-18T14:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > > The atheists and other non-Christians feel the Christians despise them, and I fear believe sometimes even that Christ despises them. Now, now, **Trisk** , deep breaths. I, for one, know better, both of Christianity and Jesus. Thank goodness for my liberal religion! 😃 > [@](#): > > Even supposing for a moment that Esprix (forgive me for supposing this, Esprix, it is only to personalize a point, not a true expression of my assessment of you.) was dedicated to practicing some sinful act for the rest of his life. Does that give you the authority to judge his soul, and pronounce his damnation? I deny that to you! I rebuke you in Jesus’ name for it. Go and sin no more. When you find and expel that hatred from your heart, go privately and make amends to him for it. He is as much a child of God as you are. His sin is no different from your own, whatever yours, or his might be. He’s already tried, and failed miserably, mostly in the matters of civilized social interaction. Ah, well… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/123 "2000-07-18T14:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > > If a Mormon was going around acting like FriendofGod and Chocobo, and you wanted to prove how shallow their position was by referring to a passage from the BoM, would that be “kinda odd”? Or, for that matter, the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bless Her holy hooves, may they never be shod)? 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/124 "2000-07-18T15:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > > So, Friend and everyone, I ask your forgiveness for being argumentative and witty when I could have brought peace. For showing my pride when I should have been showing God’s love. For dividing instead of uniting. And I thank you most humbly, Tris, for calling me to my senses on this. Oh, please - no forgiveness is required. You and **Trisk** have been the voices of reason throughout. Now get off the cross… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/125 "2000-07-18T17:40:55Z")
True confession time. **Tris** , you said > [@](#): > > But even aside from authority, what about effectiveness? Who has this discussion brought nearer to the Lord? Me. These discussions/arguments bring me closer to belief in a God that I very much want to be there. Not, of course, to the fire and brimstone God of the OT, nor to the Divine Weasel so depressingly common to modern Fundamentalism. But a greater understanding of spirituality, love, and humanity, not just from the Biblical verses (and other canon and dogma) but also from watching people profess and think about their faith, means for me a greater understanding of _why_ so many of us find belief necessary. And that, in turn, helps me begin to establish a personal faith reconcilable with intellect, fact, and reason. Folks like you, Poly, Dex, Zev, Brian, 'Sprix, Lib, _et al._ demonstrate to me daily that such a faith is possible, even while others try desperately to show that it is not. It’s not FoG’s or Chocobo’s God that I will _ever_ see, nor yet yours, so I can’t say I’m being “brought nearer to the Lord” as such. But a deepening spirituality and understanding is certainly a start. (And hoo-boy, would my brother the Preacher be startled to hear that.) **Tris** , please don’t be upset. If even one person (even me) learns _anything_, it’s worth it, no? On a different note: **Ben** mentioned “The Rape of the Sabine Women.” > [@](#): > > For a handful of coin I happen to have a private and uncut performance of “The Rape of the Sabine Women.” > > Or rather woman. > > Or rather Alfred. > > And for eight you can participate. -T. Stoppard, _Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead_ Sorry. Couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/126 "2000-07-18T19:26:28Z")
**andros** , get thee to a Unitarian Universalist congregation, and let the searchin’ for Truth & Meaning begin! 😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/127 "2000-07-18T19:36:53Z")
Yeah, I reckon I might be headed that way (following Satan, heh heh). But you UUs are just so damn touchy-feely . . . 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/128 "2000-07-18T19:40:50Z")
Where you from? Some of the northeastern UU congregations are downright _Christian!_😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/129 "2000-07-18T20:12:49Z")
“The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks.” – Tennessee Williams ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/130 "2000-07-18T20:32:16Z")
Are you calling **andros** a rock-head? 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/131 "2000-07-18T20:43:00Z")
'Twas a literary allusion, sir. The closing scene of _Camino Real_ to be precise. And I think Andros will get the metaphor behind it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/132 "2000-07-18T23:49:31Z")
FriendofGod wrote: > [@](#): > > They’ve been married for 7+ years and neither her nor the kids have an ounce of HIV. Well, I should **hope** not. HIV is usually measured in micrograms. An entire **ounce** of HIV would be enough to infect everybody on the East Coast of the United States! ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/133 "2000-07-19T00:15:21Z")
A few responses … Polycarp: Thank you for explaining “sock puppet!” That makes sense. And thank you for trusting me :). You said: "And, without beating that poor horse any more, we have seen that good people can differ in their opinion of what constitutes sin. (I hope you’ll give me at least that much credibility.) " I will say this Poly … I believe you are very sincere and come to your belief from a kind heart. I think we might see each other the same way – sincere but deceived. What you or I believe on this issue won’t affect our _personal_ walks with Christ, but it will certainly affect how we minister to people in our lives. I see you as missing an opportunity … you see me as going after an opportunity that you don’t think is there. Here’s the thing … all believers are missing _something_. I’m sure there are areas of my walk where I _think_ something is true but it’s not, or vice versa. To me, the only safeguard against that is being open to someone giving me a good scripture-based argument to make their case. People have done that with me before and I’ve changed me mind, and I’ve shared scriptural truth with others and they’ve changed their minds. As an example, I remember being shocked about 13 years ago when I heard a preacher that I respect _tremendously_ say from the pulpit, “God showed me that _discouragement_ was a sin.” I didn’t see it, but I was _open_ to the truth. The guy said he would show it scripturally and I just kept an open mind. Much to my surprise, he made a very good case scripturally for his point! I studied the scriptures and I would have to say his statement was biblically sound. You said: "You see the Scripture as normative – the thing against which everything else is to be tested. I do not. . . . And we differ on where we find sin. " You also said: “But that, FriendofGod and friend of mine, is unimportant.” Poly, you are so gracious I wish I could just say “I agree” and move on. From the perspective of our having a personal relationship with Christ, it is, in a way “unimportant”. But from the perspective of our lives as a whole and the lives we might touch, it matters very, very much. I fear that you will shortchange yourself and your ministry if you hold onto this belief (and I realize you might feel the same about me). Our main mission, I think you would agree Poly, is to reach out to those who are _open_ to God. Look at it as being a skilled surgeon. If someone is sick with sin and needs God to heal them, and you as the surgeon misdiagnose them and give them a clean bill of health, you’ve actually damaged them. How sin is defined is _very_ important. The _standard_ we use is _very_ important. Again, you and I might go to heaven regardless of what we believe on these things, but it can drastically affect our lives and ministries here on earth. It affects our personal lives too. If I _misdiagnose_ an action of mine as being _okay_ with God when it’s actually sinful, I will suffer consequences and wonder why. I will not understand. If I’d _known_ it was a sin, I could at least have made an effort to battle the temptation. You later said: “But what a gay person hears in conservative Christian witness is that he must make that sort of radical shift, before he is saved.” If that’s what people are hearing from me, I really _have_ blown my message. God takes you _AS YOU ARE_, warts and all, no matter what your sins and background. Literally _NO MATTER WHAT_. You can be a prostitute, a mass murderer, or whatever, and God will be willing to take you. You said: “Friend, you are not called to judge Esprix and others in his place. You have ably made your case that Scripture as you understand it shows the evidence of sin in his life.” I don’t claim nor have I ever claimed to “judge” anyone. I merely am pointing out what God, the ultimate judge, has warned _all of us_ about in His word. It’s the same message to me as it is to Esprix or anyone else. It’s _not_ up to me to decide about people, it’s up to God – and God has made it clear where He stands in His word. Finally Polycarp, you said: "So, Friend and everyone, I ask your forgiveness for being argumentative and witty when I could have brought peace. For showing my pride when I should have been showing God’s love. For dividing instead of uniting. " Wow. I honestly didn’t see a need for you to apologize Poly but, as I heard a wise teacher say once, “If you _need_ forgiveness, I will _certainly_ extend it to you.” I find you to be very gracious and kind despite our disagreements. Now, Daniel disagreed on my beliefs about the gay lifestyle and summarized with: "And I challenge you, Brother, to show where JC condemned any such sin, other than intolerance. " Jesus _didn’t_, as far as I know, comment on homosexuality at all … but He didn’t comment on _many_ areas of life. That doesn’t mean He didn’t have an opinion on them. And I’m afraid I must disagree too … I feel that Paul and the entire Bible, while written by men, was inspired by the Holy Spirit to hand the heart of God to mankind. The _whole_ Bible expresses God’s heart, not just Jesus’ words only. I appreciate your graciousness in your post even though we disagree. Now to Ben … Is there any point is us continuing this discussion? We are going round and round and it’s a _very_ peripheral point anyway, and I think it’ll just turn into another C&L Parts I and II. I am questioning my own wisdom here, but I will respond to a few of your points: You said: "Is it that the women willingly, with full and free consent, married the soldiers who killed their families, or is it that you don’t think they were necessarily having sex after they got married? " _I don’t know_ is the main answer. I _assume_ that it was probably forced marriage, and I assume of course that there was sex in the marriage. But you seem to assume that forced marriage = forced sex. Plus, maybe my assumptions are wrong. Remember, these were _real_ _people_. There are such things as soldiers in war that have hearts of gold. Ever seen the stories of some of the WWII vets? Many were godly men with good families. The point is … no of course I’m not downplaying that this is a horrible war and the women are traumautized (sp?) as it is by their husbands being killed and themselves being captured. But the command was not to _rape_ these women! If the command had been, “Take the women and do with them whatever you want”, then I’d say definately there would be rape implied strongly there. The first command was to “give them time to grieve”. Why in your right mind would you do this if you didn’t give a flip about them and wanted to rape them? Ever known a rapist who felt an ounce of compassion for his victim? My main point, Ben, is … neither you nor I _know_ the details of how that command was carried out. You are making dramatic assumptions that fit with your apparent worldview that God is a cruel tyrannical dictator. Later you said: "You’ve missed my point. If your deity were to tell you to do something that he didn’t really want you to do, because he wanted to test your ability to think for yourself, how would you know what he expected of you? " I don’t believe God does this. He tells you to do what He wants you to do. The only time I’ve ever known where God told someone to do something He _really_ didn’t want them to do, it was to test their _faith_, not their ability to _think for themselves_. I don’t know of a place biblically where God did that, but if you know of one please point it out to me. Later you said: “Were the Amalekite babies killed because they inherited the curse, and therefore had no free will, or do we all have free will, and 1-day-old Amalekite embryos chose a deep-seated evil which could only be dealt with by their destruction?” Again, we’re dealing with _theories_ here. My opinion and a dime will buy you a cup of coffee. No I believe that they had free will, but that their inclination toward evil might have become so strong as they grew older that they would be “too far gone” from the get-go. You later said "What I asked was, why does your deity create people even when he knows that they will choose to reject him? " Look lets face it … God took a risk in creating us. He created each person with free will, knowing that they would have the choice to accept or reject Him. And some believe He could see in the future and know that some would reject Him. Do those people deserve the chance to choose any _less_ than those who chose _for_ Christ? Should God say, “Okay, this person’s not gonna choose for me, therefore, _zap_, let’s get rid of him and not _give_ him a choice!” I’ll say it again: God creates people, period. They have free will. God _could_ take away the free will of those who chose not to follow Him by somehow blocking their existance, but God isn’t that way. He gives you a choice. Ben, as for your last set of statement about your feelings about God. This literally broke my heart for you even more. You have been fed a bundle of lies about God. I didn’t realize you felt this way toward God. Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? Do you mind if I ask _why_ you believe God is so sadistic and perverted? I would really like to know. Okay I’ll end this post and move on to Trisk and Esprix. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/134 "2000-07-19T00:32:14Z")
Trisk: Your first two paragraphs gave me good food for thought. I have wondered “Who has this discussion brought nearer to the Lord” too at times. For sure the discussion about the O.T. passage is a distraction, and the _main_ point of C&L Part III so far (ie homosexuality & Christianity) is, in many ways, a distraction as well from the whole main point of Christianity. And I guess I confess, somewhat like Polycarp, to allowing myself to getting “wrapped up” in the debate and the “heat of the moment” without really thinking or praying, “Lord, are you in this? Are you trying to reach anyone through me, or am I just talking here?” You said: “If God is getting on your case about your words, consider the emotions you have been evoking as well. If you speak as a Christian, people ascribe your attitudes to Christ.” Yep, this is essentially what God got on my case about. He rebuked me lovingly but firmly for allowing harshness into my tone and representing Him in an incorrect way. However, you lost me in your next few sentences. You said regarding Esprix "Does that give you the authority to judge his soul, and pronounce his damnation? I deny that to you! " Well, I’ll join you! I have never and nor would I pronounce someone’s “damnation”, nor have I ever felt that I have the authority to “judge” anyone’s soul. All I can do is share with other what God, the ultimate judge, declares to _all of us_ in His holy word, myself included. You said: "When you find and expel that hatred from your heart, go privately and make amends to him for it. " Well my friend, you are assuming there is hatred in my heart and there is not. No, God has given me a love for the people of this board, even though I’m frustrated at times at my lack of ability to make His truth clear. Lastly you said: "He is the authority from whom judgment and forgiveness must come. You are not! " Obviously. Why do you think I’d disagree? Finally: "Calling him unclean, or perverse, or unworthy of the love of God is not loving. " Well actually, I fit that bill as do all of us. None of us are worthy of God’s love, but He chooses to love us anyway. THAT’S what’s so amazing. Remember the old song? “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me …”. Only if you see the wretchedness in your own life can you fully appreciate the love, grace, and mercy of God. I don’t deserve Him and I’m so grateful He chose to love me anyway. I’ll respond to Esprix in my next post. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/135 "2000-07-19T00:35:48Z")
I’ve clipped most of FriendofGod’s post, because I don’t think there’s much point in replying to most of it. The last part is, I think, important however: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\* You have been fed a bundle of lies about God. \*\* Once again, I find your comments to be a little weird. Based on nothing more than your own interpretation of your own Bible, I have concluded that the deity you worship is evil. Who fed me the lies, exactly? You? The Bible? > [@](#): > > \*\* > > I didn’t realize you felt this way toward God. Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? Do you mind if I ask _why_ you believe God is so sadistic and perverted? I would really like to know. \*\* Haven’t you been listening? I have told you a dozen times that the reason I refuse to refer to your deity as “God” is because the fictional deity you worship is an entity of infinite evil. I’ve been explaining why I feel that way all throughout this thread, but now you ask permission to ask me why as if it were some personal secret. For the last time: Your deity is sadistic and perverted because of all that rape, genocide, and torture! I don’t have a problem with _God_ at all. I just don’t think you worship the real God, and I refuse to commit the blasphemy of referring to your deity with that honorific. You would think that after the third time I said that, it would have sunk in… -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/136 "2000-07-19T01:05:02Z")
**FoG:** > [@](#): > > The first command was to “give them time to grieve”. Why in your right mind would you do this if you didn’t give a flip about them and wanted to rape them? Ever known a rapist who felt an ounce of compassion for his victim? Seems to me you are rather glossing over the last verse. It continues: _After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her._ So if the captor doesn’t enjoy the experience, he has no further responsibility for the woman he’s taken and kept in his house and “dishonored” except to refrain from selling or enslaving her. As for disclaiming the implication of sexual coercion in this situation, I don’t think it will stand up to a scholarly examination of the text. [Here](http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/previous/vol1n1/v1n1elma.htm) is an article from the journal _Women in Judaism_ discussing these very verses: > [@](#): > > The biblical text of Deuteronomy 21:10-14 deals with the treatment of sexually desirable non-Jewish women who are captured in war. It addresses the sexual privileges of the captors, as well as the legal rights and the process of the socialization into Israelite society of the captives. […] > > _And if you do not want her, you shall send her out on her own; you shall not sell her at all for money, you shall not treat her as a slave, because you “violated” her._ > We shall focus on the expression “violated her,” 'initah in Hebrew, from the root 'anah. It is in the translation of this word that an attitudinal difference between the Targumim becomes apparent. In 2 Samuel 13;11-14, the story of Amnon and Tamar, the root 'anah is used twice: “do not violate me,” > and then “he overpowered her, he violated her, and he lay with her.” If we understand “and he lay with her” to mean “and he had intercourse with her,” we may understand from the juxtaposition of the two concepts that 'anah can be considered sexual violence. […] > We must recognize, however, that though it is important to determine what is meant by 'anah in Deuteronomy 21:14, rape is only one way of exerting sexual violence. Clearly sexual violence is conveyed in all the quoted instances where 'anah is used. How very compassionate. I sure hope that if any Bible-believer were to capture me in war, he’d have more sympathy and humanity than to “follow God’s Word” in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/137 "2000-07-19T01:10:15Z")
Esprix, you said: "It frightens me that your god is “testing his faith” by putting his wife and children at risk. " Missing the point. If in fact they _pass_ this test of faith and believe God will take care of them, what is the risk? If in fact they are _right_ and God _will_ take care of them, there is 0% risk. The challenge is _actually_ _believing_ that God is going to do that! Again, I don’t think I could do it … my faith level isn’t that high. I totally understand your recitation of HIV facts, and agree with them. Again, I was very nervous and uncomfortable with this couple getting married myself at first … but I truly believe God changed my heart. God _can_ work supernatural miracles. Specifically you said "As long as this guy is having unprotected sex with his wife, he is putting her and any children they might conceive by that act at risk - period. " Agreed in general, but again, God can work supernatural miracles. They did definately take a huge leap of faith, but God honored it and it worked. That’s all I can say. Look at their track record. "What you call “divine intervention” I call pure dumb doo-dah luck. HIV transmission doesn’t occur every time, but luck eventually does run out. " Again, leaving God out of the equation, you are totally right. But God _is_ in the equation in this situation. You said: "Ted Bundy was often described as stable, mature, and healthy - doesn’t mean the guy didn’t have issues. " Yeah … ah … well, _true_, but my only overall point is this. Everyone has _issues_, but over time God can help you clean up those issues one at a time. Another issue my friend dealt with was debt. When I met him in 1991 he was knee-deep in overwhelming debt. He and his wife, through faith and smart biblically-sound financial planning, are now totally debt-free. My point is, God removes the “dysfunctions” from our life one a time over time. As He does this, you become more stable, healthy, and godly. You said: "You are denying that God has spoken to me? " Would you not agree that it’s _extremely_ _dangerous_ to believe God is speaking to us in an _absolute_ fashion, to the extreme? What if I said to you, “Esprix, I really believe sincerely that God has told me to cheat on my wife”. What if I said, “Esprix, I really believe sincerely that God has told me to rob the 7-11 down the street later tonight”. If I say “God is telling me” to do something that He’s _already said_ NOT to do in the Bible, then I’m sorry, but _I am wrong_! God _didn’t_ speak to me, even though I may have _thought_ He did! Likewise, many Christians make the mistake of praying prayers like, “God, do you want me to witness to my friends?” or “God, do you want me to date a nonchristian?” There is absolutely no _need_ to pray these prayers, because God has _already_ answered them in the Bible! (“Yes” and “No”, in the above situations). I don’t believe God answers questions He’s already answered. Later you said: "And you’re still telling me you claim to know what is in the heart of my gay Christian friends. " No actually I have no idea what’s in their hearts. I would guess many of them are sincere. I met a lesbian online about a year ago who believed she was a Christian. She actually understood where I was coming from and was actually somewhat sympathetic, but didn’t buy it either. I would guess many in that lifestyle are sincere and that’s what breaks my heart more than anything. Others, perhaps, are more militant and _know_ that what they’re doing is flying in the face of God, and they don’t care. But I never claimed to know what is in the heart of your friends Esprix. You said "Sounds like the judgement of who is and who is not Christian is up to God and God alone. " Well … yeah. Amen, preach it 'sprix ;). Then: "You seem to revel in pronouncing judgement on your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. " You assume that’s what I’m doing and I guess, as I’ve said before, looking at it through your “glasses” I can see how you might see it that way. I don’t know any of your friends personally Esprix. I’m sure many of them are nice people and I’d enjoy having them as friends if I knew them. This is not a “personal judgment” on them. It is merely stating what the Bible teaches. Something just occurred to me that might be a good illustration. I don’t think my mom would mind my sharing this because she’s shared it publically as part of her testimony in the past. In the late 60’s my mom and dad rebelled against God and fell into the whole warped-60’s lifestyle/movement – ie, open marriage, drugs, etc etc. As you might’ve guessed, their marriage ended rather abruptly in 1970. It wasn’t until 4 years later that my mom and dad (both separately!) came back to the Lord through totally separate circumstances. They are both serving the Lord today. But the main point is this. During that time in the late 60’s, my mom has lamented openly at how _wrong_ the church was to not rebuke them and challenge them about their sin. She _so wishes_ someone had lovingly confronted her at that time to wake her up and get her out of the lifestyle she was poisoning herself with. That wouldn’t have been “judging” her … quite the contrary. It would have been the equivalent of an “intervention” – trying to wake someone up to the issues in their life before it destroys them. Later you said regarding my not wanting to rehash the certainty-vs-opinion debate: “Of course you don’t, because that would involve taking responsibility for yourself.” _lol_ Esprix, have you _read_ C&L parts 1 - 3? I’ve made no apologies for what I believe, but what on earth would be the point of debating it with you? You simply don’t agree and I don’t think anything I say would change your mind. It’s been debated to death in parts 1 & 2 and got nowhere. Finally you said: “Oh, then I guess he heard my prayers over yours. Imagine that.” Are you for real? Did you ask God to convict me? How very cool! Finally, andros: Your post was interesting. I’d be interested in hearing more about the things you’re pondering. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/138 "2000-07-19T01:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\*Esprix, you said: "It frightens me that your god is “testing his faith” by putting his wife and children at risk. " > > Missing the point. If in fact they _pass_ this test of faith and believe God will take care of them, what is the risk? If in fact they are _right_ and God _will_ take care of them, there is 0% risk. The challenge is _actually_ _believing_ that God is going to do that! Again, I don’t think I could do it … my faith level isn’t that high. > > \*\* So there’s this flood, and this guy sits on the roof of his house. Some people come by in a raft, and offer to save him. “My faith is strong- the Lord will save me!” he says. After a while the waters rise some more and a coast guard boat comes out to him, and the men on board offer to save him. “My faith is strong- the Lord will save me!” When he’s stuck at the very peak of the house, the water lapping around his ankles, a helicopter comes along and drops him a latter. “My faith is strong! The Lord won’t let me down!” Then he drowns. In heaven he asks, “God, I had faith in you. Why did you not save me?” God replies, “I sent a raft, I sent the coast guard, I send you a freakin’ _helicopter_, what the heck more did you want?” The tragedy is that God gave your friend a brain, a penis, and some condoms, and only one of them seems to get much use. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/139 "2000-07-19T01:31:53Z")
**FoG** , I have a question for you. Which do you think is better (or maybe I mean worse): 1) non-Christians associating Christianity with acceptance of homosexuality, or 2) non-Christians associating Christianity with arrogance and narrow-mindedness? I realize that probably neither option sounds really attractive to you, but if it came down to this Hobson’s choice, which would you prefer? Because if you think that (1) is less objectionable, I tell you in all sympathy that you’re harming your own cause. I personally welcome anyone on this board who wants to have a thoughtful debate (and who could ask for anything better than a chance to argue over Hebrew roots, anyway? :)), but if what you’re after is to help the rest of us have a positive impression of God and Christianity, maybe you’d better take your bow and leave the witnessing to **Poly** and **Tris** and other “liberal Christians” from now on. You’re doing your mission much more harm than good, and should probably seek a different field for your gifts. That’s just a bit of friendly advice, though. If you’d rather continue the debate, or you believe God really wants you to continue the debate, then carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255/140 "2000-07-19T02:14:20Z")
And Kimstu, with all due humility, or lack thereof, me. Those who are interested in a Christian Church with no intolerance, no being judgemental, and o 'condemning" could well look into the Celtic CC, especially the “mystical” branch. And, Ben, now I understand a lot of your posts and anger on the other thread. Much evil has been done in the name of YHVH, or JC, or Allah, or “the flag” or nationalism, or many other things. This does not make JC or any of the other things evil, just those who claim to do evil in their name. Since I was not around some 4000 years ago, I cannot tell you if the Israelites really did kill all the Amal.\*, or if that was an exaggerated victory so common to that periods histories. If the act was just as described in the OT, I really do not know if it was, in fact, directly ordered by Y. And, if yes, and yes, there may have been some “unfathomable” reason, such as the Amal. were going to do the same to the Israelites, as they were sworn enemies. So, I am afraid I cannot explain that to you. But do you hate EVERYTHING that evil has been done in the name of? The US flag? Every god? if, so I am very sorry for you, to not have any faith and so much hate in your life. - I am not a Biblical literalist, altho the OT is very good history, the victories of the Isrealites seem to have been exaggerated, even tho based in fact. They might have just wiped out the fighting men, and dispersed the others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-love-part-iii/25255.md?page=8)