# Christianity and Paganism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942 "2004-05-25T04:25:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/1 "2004-05-25T04:25:09Z")
This question was inspired by [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4892988&postcount=14) in the thread [What % of the Straight Dope Community Do Ya’ll Think Is Christian?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257926). I am a Christian, specifically a Catholic. I believe that Jesus Christ was God; that he became man, died in payment for all of the sins of mankind, rose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven. I believe that by accepting Jesus as God and Savior, that I will have eternal life in Heaven after I die. (There is of course a bit more to it, but you get the idea). I have always been quite interested in “Pagan religions”, by which I mean the wide range of “Earth-based” religions, especially those that were prevalent in pre-Roman Europe. I wonder if it is possible to reconcile any of those beliefs with Christianity. Obviously, those were pan-theistic religions, which would seem to instantly be at odds with mono-theistic Christianity. However, the 1st Commandment (or 2nd, depending on your translation), says “you shall have **no other gods** before me”. This would seem to imply the existence of _other gods_, albeit gods of a lesser power and authority than YHWH. Could _other gods_ refer to pagan gods (Roman, Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc.)? I’m not suggesting that these gods were specifically intended to be the _other gods_ of the Bible, but is this a valid interpretation? Could it be that all of these gods actually exist (or existed at one time), and that their existence is consistent with Christian belief, so long as one does not attempt to put them ahead of YHWH? Is it possible that some Angel (or other supernatural being) might have been granted some level of dominion over the sea, for example, and that this being became known as “Poseidon” to the Greeks, “Neptune” to the Romans, “Lir” to the Celts, etc.? Since most of these religions predate or are coincidental with the rise of Judaism, and then Christianity, it seems at least plausible that there were other “valid” gods before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai, but that they were “pushed aside” once YHWH decided to reveal himslef to his chosen people. Once the “true god” was known, worship of, and later belief in, these “lesser gods” faded and eventually ceased entirely. Remember, I am not asking if these are valid beliefs in and of themselves, but rather if this sort of thinking is consistent with, or even allowed by, Christian theology. Thanks in advance for any input. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/2 "2004-05-25T04:28:19Z")
That’s what a number of people, including Augustine, argued…that the pagan gods were actually demons who pretended to be divine. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/3 "2004-05-25T06:00:30Z")
> [@Suburban Plankton](#): > > I have always been quite interested in “Pagan religions”, by which I mean the wide range of “Earth-based” religions, especially those that were prevalent in pre-Roman Europe. I wonder if it is possible to reconcile any of those beliefs with Christianity. For what it’s worth, I don’t know any modern practitioner of any of the old paganisms who considers their faith ‘Earth-based’. (I know, in varying levels of depth, Egyptian, Norse/Germanic, Celtic, Greek, Roman, and Canaanite reconstructionists.) As a general rule (though I’m overgeneralising wildly), those faiths are closer to ancestral/family based, though some have major civic components. To be certain, though, many of the ancient practitioners of those beliefs saw no conflict with Christianity. Most of the Celtic recons I know find a lot of information about their faith through interpreting the traditions of the Irish Church and interpolating with history; several of the Germanic heathens I know are prone to saying such things as “By Thor and the White Christ.” This is from the viewpoint of the pagans, though; polytheists tend to have few issues with adopting the cool god their neighbours are talking about. The people who were trying to convert them _did_ have issues; adopting the new god wasn’t enough to satisfy them. > [@](#): > > Could _other gods_ refer to pagan gods (Roman, Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc.)? I’m not suggesting that these gods were specifically intended to be the _other gods_ of the Bible, but is this a valid interpretation? Could it be that all of these gods actually exist (or existed at one time), and that their existence is consistent with Christian belief, so long as one does not attempt to put them ahead of YHWH? A (Jewish) friend of mine tends towards the position, “Sure, there are other gods. Those are _your_ gods. I don’t worship them, because they’re not _my_ god, and not the god of my people.” Within my faith, the vision of divinity is that the multiplicity of gods are all distinct manifestations of the greater, incomprehensible divine. I have no personal issues with considering Hashem, the Christian God, or a manifestation as Jesus to be faces of the same greater, incomprehensible divine, as they manifest to different peoples and different individuals, who need different images and structures. (I know Christians who hold similar views.) I figure not everyone’s gonna understand the same things or need the same representations to make sense of the divine, so it only makes sense that it’s liable to show in a multiplicity of forms. Whether or not the transcendence behind Jesus is the same as the transcendence behind any other structured imagining of the divine doesn’t matter to me personally, but I don’t consider it inconsistent with my faith. And, as I said, I know Christians with similar feelings on the matter. (I suspect a few will be by, sooner or later, heh.) ---
**Author:** ![Drizzt\_Do\_Urden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Drizzt\_Do\_Urden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drizzt_Do_Urden)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/4 "2004-05-25T10:49:49Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > several of the Germanic heathens I know are prone to saying such things as “By Thor and the White Christ.” How vastly different this is from many of the Asatru people I know, many of whom are quite anti-christian. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/5 "2004-05-25T14:33:11Z")
Suburban- run to the nearest library or bookstore & get all the fiction you can by C.S. Lewis. Lewis became a Christian when Tolkien challenged him that the Pagan myth of the Dying/Rising Gods which Lewis loved so much found their substance in Jesus. Quick summary of my view- Pagan myth & Hebrew prophecy are both chock full of anticipations of Jesus. Thus, Paganism can be either a great signpost leading us to Christ or a dangerous diversion from him. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/6 "2004-05-25T14:42:16Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Suburban- run to the nearest library or bookstore & get all the fiction you can by C.S. Lewis. Lewis became a Christian when Tolkien challenged him that the Pagan myth of the Dying/Rising Gods which Lewis loved so much found their substance in Jesus. Well, that’s a bit of an oversimplification, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/7 "2004-05-25T14:44:49Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > For what it’s worth, I don’t know any modern practitioner of any of the old paganisms who considers their faith ‘Earth-based’. (I know, in varying levels of depth, Egyptian, Norse/Germanic, Celtic, Greek, Roman, and Canaanite reconstructionists.) The OP might be thinking of Wicca. Most of us call ourselves “pagan,” but aren’t really an attempt to reconstruct a specific, historical pagan faith. We do tend to be very “Earth-based.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/8 "2004-05-25T14:45:07Z")
C. S. Lewis was rather fond of oversimplifcations (and false dichotomies). ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/9 "2004-05-25T14:51:40Z")
> [@Suburban Plankton](#): > > Could _other gods_ refer to pagan gods (Roman, Greek, Norse, Celtic, etc.)? I’m not suggesting that these gods were specifically intended to be the _other gods_ of the Bible, but is this a valid interpretation? Could it be that all of these gods actually exist (or existed at one time), and that their existence is consistent with Christian belief, so long as one does not attempt to put them ahead of YHWH? The concept you’re refering to is called “henotheism” – the belief that many gods exist, while worshipping only one. I have yet to meet a Christian henotheist, but given the wide variation in beliefs from Christian to Christian, I have no doubt some exist. Historically? Well, the Bible itself documents many instances of Jews turning to Pagan gods, and literary and historical sources demonstrate the mixing of religions under the Romans (there have been religious articles dedicated to the Egyptian goddess Isis from the Roman period, found in central Europe, to name one example). It’s certainly possible that there were Jews and early Christians who believed in many gods. Whether the authors of the Bible were among them is anybody’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/10 "2004-05-25T14:52:03Z")
No, I mean the account is an oversimplification. Lewis’s conversion was the result of a 4 or 5 year, at least, philosophical struggle. The “eureka” moment might have been a conversation between Lewis and Tolkien (in which Lewis dismissed myths as lies and superstitions, and Tolkien said they were symbolic of truth), but his conversion was a long time coming. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/11 "2004-05-25T15:04:12Z")
The OT admonishments about worshipping other gods are henothesitic in anture, not monotheistic. Judaism did not really become monotheistic until the 8th century. Before that it was polytheistic. The answer to the OP is yes, the authors of the OT believed that other gods existed but that loyalty must be shown only to Yahweh. These other gods were not so much the Greco-Roman gods, though, but were the gods of the Caananite pantheon from which the Elohim and Yahweh cults were combined to form what is essentially Judaism. Tolkien was wrong, btw. Pagan resurrection themes far predate Christianity. The Christian resurrection myth was ripped off from pagans, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/12 "2004-05-25T15:06:39Z")
No, Christianity cannot be reconciled with Wicca, Asatru, or any other form of paganism or neo-paganism. The difference runs even deeper than monotheism vs. polytheism vs. pantheism vs. henotheism. The difference is **sin.** It is a core belief of Christianity that all human beings are born with the taint of original sin and we are damned; we need Jesus to redeem our sins and save us. The concept of sin, in the sense a kind of spiritual pollution, is of Jewish origin and has no place in any pagan belief-system. If there’s no sin, for what would we need Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/13 "2004-05-25T15:25:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The concept of sin, in the sense a kind of spiritual pollution, is of Jewish origin and has no place in any pagan belief-system. Religions other than Christianity and Judaism have an idea of spiritual cleanliness and uncleanliness. The Romans had the word “nefas”, meaning contrary to divine law or impure, and a person could be nefas. We know that the Celts had spiritual purification rituals for both people and places, and they also had the concept of “geasa”, special obligations or restrictions placed on a person, that he couldn’t break without offending the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/14 "2004-05-25T15:28:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, Christianity cannot be reconciled with Wicca, Asatru, or any other form of paganism or neo-paganism. The difference runs even deeper than monotheism vs. polytheism vs. pantheism vs. henotheism. The difference is **sin.** It is a core belief of Christianity that all human beings are born with the taint of original sin and we are damned; we need Jesus to redeem our sins and save us. The concept of sin, in the sense a kind of spiritual pollution, is of Jewish origin and has no place in any pagan belief-system. If there’s no sin, for what would we need Jesus? Forgive my nitpicking but most religions have some concept of sin or of behavior which is spiritually corrosive. Even Eastern religions have bad karma. The difference for Christianity is the belief that humans are _born_ in this corruption. “Original sin” is unique to Christianity (it does not exist in Judaism). In every other religion people are born innocent and only become “corrupt” through their own behavior and decisions. Most religions also do not reqire a spiritual “savior.” In most other faiths, people are judged by their actions not “redeemed” by an intercessory like Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/15 "2004-05-25T15:28:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Tolkien was wrong, btw. Pagan resurrection themes far predate Christianity. The Christian resurrection myth was ripped off from pagans, not the other way around. First of all, Tolkien didn’t say anything about pagan resurrection themes, Lewis did. And what Lewis said was that for a long time, he found some sort of spiritual truth in Pagan resurrection myths, but not in the Christian one, and that his conversion led him to realize that the Christian one did have spiritual truth in it, the moreso because it was “God’s myth” instead of “man’s myth”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/16 "2004-05-25T15:56:45Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > First of all, Tolkien didn’t say anything about pagan resurrection themes, Lewis did. And what Lewis said was that for a long time, he found some sort of spiritual truth in Pagan resurrection myths, but not in the Christian one, and that his conversion led him to realize that the Christian one did have spiritual truth in it, the moreso because it was “God’s myth” instead of “man’s myth”. I was responding to **FriarTed’s** statement regarding Tolkien’s claim that Pagan resurrection themes “found their substance” in Christianity. Christianity was, in fact, simply one more variant on an old theme. Lewis’ claim that Christianity is “God’s myth” rather than “man’s myth” is so tautological as to be silly. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/17 "2004-05-25T16:11:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Lewis’ claim that Christianity is “God’s myth” rather than “man’s myth” is so tautological as to be silly. It’s a statement of belief, not logic. Here’s what he actually said, in part… > [@](#): > > Now the story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened. One must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God’s myth where the others are men’s myths… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/18 "2004-05-25T16:35:04Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It’s a statement of belief, not logic. Here’s what he actually said, in part… That’s exactly my point. His assertion Chrisitianity is “God’s myth because it’s true” is no different than saying “It’s God’s myth because I believe it.” He was talking out of his ass, which wasn’t unusual for Lewis. I have to say, I find his writings on Christianity to be greatly overrated. He constantly argued from assertion and thought he was using logic. Don’t even get me started on his famous “liar, madman or God” false trilemna. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/19 "2004-05-25T16:51:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s exactly my point. His assertion Chrisitianity is “God’s myth because it’s true” is no different than saying “It’s God’s myth because I believe it.” He was talking out of his ass, which wasn’t unusual for Lewis. Maybe, but it was a private letter to Arthur Greeves, who already believed the resurrection happened, as to how Lewis’s views about the bible changed after he converted to Christianity. It wasn’t intended for public view or as an apologetic. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942/20 "2004-05-25T16:51:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Don’t even get me started on his famous “liar, madman or God” false trilemna. Oh come on now, surely objections to ill-written history, complete fabrication, or wishful thinking don’t count. I mean, they would just **ruin** his argument, and therefore must be discounted… 😃 On a more serious note, and I can’t remember where I read this, but I could have sworn Lewis used the argument about previous mythologies/religions anticipated Christianity for a specific myth that predated Christ’s resurrection by 100 years (or so). I _think_ it was a story about two lovers, one of whom died and came back for the other one…Argh…I can’t recall-in any event, is my pathetic excuse for a memory jogging anyone else’s memory? Anyone know what myth I’m talking about? 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-paganism/246942.md?page=2)