# Christianity and "sinners" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087 "2003-08-23T03:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/1 "2003-08-23T03:40:52Z")
I think one of the most destructive ideas fostered by religion, especially when taught to children, is the idea that we are all fundamentally sinners. Could someone please explain the justification for this belief - I don’t mean Adam and Eve, but the belief that \*we \* are all sinners. And why is it such a central part of religious dogma, such a basic characteristic of us as human beings? Is Christianity the only religion that asserts this? For that matter, do all Christian denominations preach this? Also, do you differentiate between honest mistakes and sins? If you do something wrong, without \*knowing \*that it’s wrong, is it still a sin? And what about small children who haven’t been around long enough to have actually done any wrongdoing? Isn’t it cruel to label an innocent child a “sinner”? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/2 "2003-08-23T03:49:20Z")
If one is less than perfect at all, one has fallen short. The Greek for falling short is “hamartia”. In English, this is translated as sin. This concept of falling short of perfection has been perverted and twisted over the centuries to be equivalent to “criminal activity”. As my own Church (Orthodox Church) teaches, while some “sin” could be “spiritual crimes”, others are merely falling short of perfection. Why bother with such unintentional sins? Look at it this way: If I knock somebody into the wall unintentionally, it still behooves me to ask forgiveness for the act and strive to not repeat it in the future. Indeed, refusing any and all responsibility because “it’s not my fault” is a hallmark of selfishness, immaturity, and antisociality. As for “Original Sin”, the idea that it’s some kind of “inherited crime” or “inhereted guilt” is also an aberration that Eastern Orthodoxy rejects. The concept of “inherited guilt” may be the worst doctrinal error that Augustine ever perpetrated. In Orthodoxy, Original Sin is seen as a weakness, a tendency, an unfortunate state that makes it too easy to err. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/3 "2003-08-23T03:53:02Z")
I don’t believe children sin. And it’s cruel to label any innocent person a sinner. If someone hasn’t sinned, they are not sinners. ---
**Author:** ![captainQwark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e68b1a/32.png) [@captainQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/captainQwark)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/4 "2003-08-23T04:00:48Z")
I really hate the idea of original sin. Why should people be punished for what an ancestor did thousands of years ago? Fundamental Christianity doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/5 "2003-08-23T05:42:51Z")
Harping about sin ignores the other half of the phenomenon of Salvation. We all sin. We fall short of the spiritual perfection that allows immortality to happen. The human condition is inherently mortal. That immortal spark within us can only survive and grow in a spirit of pure love, and unselfish charity. But humans don’t have lives like that. We fall short. We sin, and that tiny spark grows dim. But the Lord does not fall short. He provides us with His own light, because of love alone. It is not about the sin, it’s about the Love of God. Stop worrying about sin, and who is going to hell. Love each soul you meet, as if that were the Soul of God Himself. One day, it will be. Be willing to love, and be loved, and the sin, that measure by which you have fallen short will pass by as you are lifted beyond any human limit. You will know joy, but even more, you will hear the Joy of God, sung to the infinite vaults of Heaven. It’ll be way cool. Tris ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/6 "2003-08-23T05:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*originally posted by \ ***Dogface** > > If one is less than perfect at all, one has fallen short. The Greek for falling short is “hamartia”. In English, this is translated as sin. How is “falling short” translated as sin? I just looked “sin” up in a few dictionaries, and the definitions were all along the line of “deliberate disobedience of God” or “to violate a religious or moral law”. ---
**Author:** ![cenwyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@cenwyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cenwyn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/7 "2003-08-23T06:11:57Z")
“Sin” is a uniquely Christian concept. There are other ideas in other cultures about wrongdoing, but it’s pretty much the Christian idea that we’re born wrong, but only the Church can make us right. Scary, really. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/8 "2003-08-23T06:18:49Z")
Why does the Christian view focus on our shortcomings (in a sort of glass half-empty view) and not on our abilities and goodness? Why immediately focus on the bad and not on the good, loving, and kind attributes of humanity? ---
**Author:** ![cenwyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@cenwyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cenwyn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/9 "2003-08-23T06:25:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*Why does the Christian view focus on our shortcomings (in a sort of glass half-empty view) and not on our abilities and goodness? Why immediately focus on the bad and not on the good, loving, and kind attributes of humanity? \*\* oh lel, think about it. “You’re a pretty good guy, and I don’t see you messing up anywhere, care to contribute?” vs. “You’ve been horribly bad, we will all hate you and nobody will deal with you because you are a sinner. Unless you confess your sins, give us some money, and promise to be good and give us money until you die… okay, you’re cool.” Get it? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/10 "2003-08-23T07:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*Why does the Christian view focus on our shortcomings (in a sort of glass half-empty view) and not on our abilities and goodness? Why immediately focus on the bad and not on the good, loving, and kind attributes of humanity? \*\* Why do the traffic courts focus on the times you violate the law, instead of praising you for every time you follow them? Why does the SEC get on your case for financial fraud, instead of focusing on the times when you _didn’t_ commit fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/11 "2003-08-23T11:05:43Z")
Believe it or not, I find the notion that we are all sinners comforting. It’s not that I think human beings are inherently evil disobedient creatures; it’s that I take comfort in the notion that _everyone_ screws up, not just me. I’m a perfectionist, and I tend to beat myself up over mistakes, sometimes to the point where I am almost unable to take action to correct them. I tell myself I am not good enough, not capable enough, not competent enough. What the Christian idea of sin and, just as importantly, forgiveness, gives me is a counter message that it’s all right. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes and mine are forgiven. A few years ago, when I was beating myself up something, a very wise friend of mine who used to be a Christian and who knows my beliefs looked me straight in the eye and said, “Has God forgiven you?” “Yes, but. . . ,” I replied. “Then why won’t you forgive yourself?” I get frustrated with myself because I’m not perfect, no matter how hard I try. Christianity tells me I don’t have to be perfect, that only one guman was perfect, and He was only half-human at that. **Svt4Him** , I know our views of God differ radically, but I’m curious about your notion that children don’t sin. Specifically, at what age does this wear off? Also, even small children can deliberately behave rudely and cruelly at times, whether it’s refusing to share toys, lying, or refusing to obey their parents. At what point do their actions become subject to God’s judgement? Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/12 "2003-08-23T14:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*How is “falling short” translated as sin? I just looked “sin” up in a few dictionaries, and the definitions were all along the line of “deliberate disobedience of God” or “to violate a religious or moral law”. \*\* Pardon me, but I find it egregiously offensive (not your fault, **x-ray vision**!) that anyone who holds to the traditional and classic standards of Christianity, as **Dogface, Siege** and I do, is answerable for the fundamentalist perversion of its teachings. I see this every time I speak of the Bible – about which I differ from **Diogenes** only in that I see God working through the human legends and poetry and such in it – and your point above is 100% on target. Moses, St. Paul, and the rest of the Biblical cast of authors and editors never once used the English word “sin.” **Zev** or **Izzy** can fill in what the Hebrew concept translated by that word is, and what its implications are – I’m not familiar enough with the Hebrew to speak to that. But the New Testament Greek word translated as “sin,” and the one used in the Septuagint, is _hamartia_, which literally means “falling short of the mark.” We are called to aspire to a state of absolute perfection, to make efforts to achieve it – realizing that we are frail and human and unable to single-handedly achieve that state. This focuses our attention on our need for God, who loves us and is ready to sustain and support those efforts and to forgive and correct our shortcomings. It was not without purpose that Jesus described God as “Father” – literally _Abba_, “Daddy,” _not_ as the Supreme Judge of All the World, Who is prepared to condemn everyone for not accomplishing the virtually impossible. By dwelling on sin and judgment, the evangelicals have perverted the whole concept of God, and brought about the rejection of Him by anyone who can trip over a rock and wonder where it came from. The Army’s slogan is “Be all that you can be,” and they offer a methodology to move from self-centered teenage boy to part of a combat team, interested not in oneself but in the mission to which all are called to accomplish. That’s the purpose of the church, too. In the only prayer customarily normally used by Episcopalians regarding sin, we say: > [@](#): > > Most merciful God, > we confess that we have sinned against you > in thought, word, and deed, > by what we have done, > and by what we have left undone. > We have not loved you with our whole heart; > we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. > We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. > For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, > have mercy on us and forgive us; > that we may delight in your will, > and walk in your ways, > to the glory of your Name. Amen. And the priest, speaking in God’s behalf by authorization transmitted from Christ through the apostles and bishops down to him, answers this: > [@](#): > > Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins > through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all > goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in > eternal life. Amen. It’s not a checklist of whether I lusted for my neighbor, walked out of work with a pencil that belongs to the company, ate a pork chop or a cheeseburger, or whatever. It’s a rueful admission that my best efforts are inadequate to be what I aspire to be, and God’s loving response that that’s OK, He’s quite capable of picking up the slack and turning what I tried and failed to do into the results He wants. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/13 "2003-08-23T14:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Moses, St. Paul, and the rest of the Biblical cast of authors and editors never once used the English word “sin.” **Zev** or **Izzy** can fill in what the Hebrew concept translated by that word is, and what its implications are – I’m not familiar enough with the Hebrew to speak to that. But the New Testament Greek word translated as “sin,” and the one used in the Septuagint, is _hamartia_, which literally means “falling short of the mark.” > \*\* It’s similar. The Hebrew word “chet,” usually translated as “sin,” originally meant “miss.” If you shoot your bow and arrow at something, and the arrow goes off to one side, that’s a chet. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/14 "2003-08-23T14:52:15Z")
[Didn’t we just have this conversation?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=201366) There are a lot of different perspectives on sin within Christianity. I like **Siege’s** take on it above. Everyone falls short, no one is perfect, and that’s OK. There’s this whole system set up so that we can learn, make mistakes, sin, improve, and so on, and still go home to be with God. Justice and mercy are both satisfied. And on previewing, I find that **Polycarp** has also said some great things. A short summary of some LDS beliefs (as long as we’re comparing): we do not believe in original sin. Children come into the world innocent. To indirectly address \*\*Siege’s \*\*question for **Svt4Him** , we have something similar and believe that children are counted innocent until they reach the age of accountability. Sure, small children behave badly on purpose all the time, but we don’t consider them to really know the difference between right and wrong well enough to be held truly responsible; they’re still learning about it. By the time a child is 8, he should be able to know enough about right and wrong to be held accountable for his actions. So we don’t baptize anyone until they’re 8, and in fact consider the notion “small children are inherently sinful” to be pretty terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/15 "2003-08-23T15:21:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*How is “falling short” translated as sin? I just looked “sin” up in a few dictionaries, and the definitions were all along the line of “deliberate disobedience of God” or “to violate a religious or moral law”. \*\* As I said before, the English word is “sin” and the concepts that you cite as “definitions” are horrible, blasphemous perversions of the concept. Have you actually ever read a complete post before replying to it? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/16 "2003-08-23T15:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by coffeecat \* > \*\*It’s similar. The Hebrew word “chet,” usually translated as “sin,” originally meant “miss.” If you shoot your bow and arrow at something, and the arrow goes off to one side, that’s a chet. \*\* This is the distinction that troubles me the most. If I don’t hit a bullseye every time, that’s simply due to the fact that I’m fallible. It has nothing to do with a moral transgression. The difference is: _choice._ We have no choice about our fallibillity, but we always have choice about ethical matters. Nobody expects a baseball player to always bat 1.000, but we expect him not to use a bat that contains cork. Nobody expects a financial advisor to always make accurate predictions, but we expect her to at least not steal her clients’ money. Nobody expects a scientist to be 100% certain of his own developing theories, but we expect him to not falsify the data or reach unsubstantiated conclusions. But ethical matters always are a matter of choice. Nobody is predestined to lie, cheat or steal; these are all volitional actions that the person could have chosen not to commit. If there were no choice, it would be inhumanly cruel to punish, or even criticize, liars, cheaters or thiefs. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/17 "2003-08-23T15:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cenwyn \* > \*\*oh lel, think about it. > > “You’re a pretty good guy, and I don’t see you messing up anywhere, care to contribute?” > > vs. > > “You’ve been horribly bad, we will all hate you and nobody will deal with you because you are a sinner. Unless you confess your sins, give us some money, and promise to be good and give us money until you die… okay, you’re cool.” > > Get it? \*\* It seems to work for Robert Schuller! (whose church is my church when we visit my brother in L.A.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/18 "2003-08-23T17:24:35Z")
More than one denomination within Christianity holds that children don’t sin until they reach the “age of accountability.” At least one denomination in Christianity holds that [“We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.”](http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1) At least one sect of Buddhism teaches that it is our own error that separates us from enlightenment. Taking the above into account, the OP’s basic premise that “religion is destructive” is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/19 "2003-08-23T17:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*More than one denomination within Christianity holds that children don’t sin until they reach the “age of accountability.” > > \*\* sounds like it may have been thought up by a 7 year old. “But I’m not accountable yet! Don’t punish me!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087/20 "2003-08-23T17:53:06Z")
vanilla: I wish I’d thought of it back when I was 7! Come to think of it, I might’ve tried the “the government says I’m not an adult until 18, so that’s the age!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-and-sinners/197087.md?page=2)