# Christianity is a force to be feared - discuss **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308 "2003-02-20T12:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/61 "2003-02-23T01:57:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Frankly, I also have a fear. The fear that anti God based groups such as the ACLU will continue to push and push untill it’s illegal to even acknowledge God in a public forum. Some people’s desire is to keep the mention of God behind closed doors and out of the public. Make it illegal to pray in public, because after all it might offend someone. Tell people when and where they can and can’t pray or give acknowledgment to God. Some people aren’t even allowed to say Merry Christmas anymore. I’ts getting ridiculous. \*\*Ummm, being told what they can and can’t say _in their own free time?_ I rather doubt it; freedom of speech is something quite highly valued in America, I’m given to understand; “Jesus loves you” from the mouth of an individual going about his or her own business is free speech. “How may I help you?, oh and by the way, jesus loves you” from the mouth of the receptionist at your local civic offices (for example) could be described as cause for concerns as it the comment could be misconstrued as being part of some government policy or other, rather than the opinion of an individual. > [@](#): > > \*\*Those who don’t like our Christian heritage, such as foreigners coming here trying to tell us we have to change our culture to suit them because it offends them, are free to leave as far as I’m concerned. Many of us worhip and believe in the God of the Bible in this country, and if they don’t like it, they can go back where they came from. Quit trying to tell us what we can and can’t do. > Same to atheists and agnostics or whatever. \*\* If America was good enough for Jesus… eh? Where exactly do you propose to pack the atheists of American nationality(which, I suspect, far outnumber 'foreigners coming here trying to…" :rolleyes: ) off to? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/62 "2003-02-24T11:24:17Z")
His4ever said… > [@](#): > > Frankly, I also have a fear. The fear that anti God based groups such as the ACLU will continue to push and push untill it’s illegal to even acknowledge God in a public forum. **1. Prove the ACLU is 'anti-God’** **2. Define public forum.** His4ever said… > [@](#): > > Some people aren’t even allowed to say Merry Christmas anymore. \*\*1. Who are these people who can’t say Merry Christmas? \*\* **2. When can they not say it, and to whom are they prevented from saying it?** His4ever said… > [@](#): > > Those who don’t like our Christian heritage, such as foreigners coming here trying to tell us we have to change our culture to suit them because it offends them, are free to leave as far as I’m concerned. **1. Jesus was a foreigner** \*\*2. ‘Our’ Christian heritage? Define ‘us’ \*\* **3. American culture is a mix of all of the other ones, not just anglo christians, so saying that we’re being told to change our culture is as ironic as a fat guy in a jogging suit** \*\*4. You’re as free to leave as any of the ‘foreigners’ \*\* \*\*5. It’s unlikely that anyone is generally offended by our culture, they just want to feel comfortable in the place they have chosen as their home. As a non-christian myself, I have the right to not have representatives of the supposedly neutral government which I personally subsidize, preach to me directly or indirectly through words or actions. \*\* His4ever said… > [@](#): > > This country was founded by people who wanted freedom of religion, not freedom from it. They wanted to worship and believe as they saw fit. Our country was founded on Christian prinicples based on the teachings of the Bible, like it or not. **1. This country was founded by people supposedly seeking to avoid religious persecution, and once they arrived, proceeded to persecute thousands of native peoples, and summarily destroy their religion** \*\*2. They wanted to worship as they saw fit, and they wanted everyone else to worship as they saw fit as well. I point to the Salem Witchcraft trials as evidence of this. \*\* **3. Our country was founded by heavy-handed puritans who feared everything they failed to understand, and had no tolerance what-so-ever for anyone or anything who failed to subscribe to their fundamentalist views.** Believe it or not, there was right and wrong and morailty before the Bible was even conceived of, the Bible and christianity are NOT, I repeat NOT the single sources, respectively, of all things right and wrong. Morality and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive, in fact, religion is responsible, (christianity specifically) for more deaths in the past 2000 years than any single identifiable cause, now if that’s not immoral, or wrong, I’m not sure what is. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/63 "2003-02-24T11:28:01Z")
By the way…Freedom of religion, DEFINATELY means Freedom FROM religion as well… Even a choice not to decide is ultimately a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/64 "2003-02-24T14:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*This country was founded by people who wanted freedom of religion, not freedom from it. They wanted to worship and believe as they saw fit. Our country was founded on Christian prinicples based on the teachings of the Bible, like it or not. \*\* And now a word from our founders: I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Thomas Jefferson All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. Thomas Paine “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” George Washington “Revealed religion has no weight with me.” Benjamin Franklin “As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” John Adams “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” James Madison And now back to the deniers of history who claim that the USA was founded as a Christian nation. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/65 "2003-02-24T15:58:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The fear that anti God based groups such as the ACLU will continue to push and push untill it’s illegal to even acknowledge God in a public forum. No one is trying to do this. When you make up a problem that isn’t there as a defense it is called a strawman. It is an intellectually unfair thing to do. People want religion and government completely seperate. That is a far cry from banning religion. You are making a piss-poor argument if I ever saw one and your feared scenario is so far from reality as to be laughable. Please provide a cite for any significant atheist organization that wishes to make it illegal for private citizens to mention God. Something tells me you will come up lacking . . . DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![ClawsOfCatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@ClawsOfCatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ClawsOfCatt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/66 "2003-02-24T19:33:08Z")
This is a very thought provoking thread. Just my opinion: I am afraid of Christianity as a movement more than I am afraid of professed Christians as individuals for the same reason I am afraid of mobs and not the seperate people in them. Groups tend to attack in ways that overcome the individual. The way I look at it – and I think this is a legitimate question to ask – if all the Christians were to disappear or be killed tommorrow, would the world be a better place? When I look at all the wars they’ve caused, I have to wonder. Not to mention 7,000,000 women burned in the middel ages as “witches.” ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/67 "2003-02-25T05:48:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ClawsOfCatt \* > \*\* > The way I look at it – and I think this is a legitimate question to ask – if all the Christians were to disappear or be killed tommorrow, would the world be a better place? When I look at all the wars they’ve caused, I have to wonder. > \*\* Wars caused exclusivly by christianity and not for various other social-political reasons? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ClawsOfCatt \* > \*\* > Not to mention 7,000,000 women burned in the middel ages as “witches.” \*\* Actually, I was under the impression that most of the witch killing didn’t occur until the Reniassence. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/68 "2003-02-25T06:17:30Z")
Actually, the timeline stretches between 1233 and 1692, in which there were reportedly 9 million people tortured, and nearly 1 million killed, though even the best of cites in this regard fail the accuracy test, in that there weren’t really accurate records kept by the people of the day. It was not until the Salem Witch Trials of 1692 that good records were kept of the 30 people that were killed and the more than 200 people were accused and imprisoned, and eventually released. The renaissance was, roughly, between 1452 and 1629, and in that time, less than half of the deaths attributed to the witch craze took place, still though, the 16th century was indeed the time frame. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/69 "2003-02-25T06:30:41Z")
_ClawsofCatt wrote_ > [@](#): > > The way I look at it – and I think this is a legitimate question to ask – if all the Christians were to disappear or be killed tommorrow, would the world be a better place? When I look at all the wars they’ve caused, I have to wonder. My mate has not, to my knowledge, caused any wars; he has been far too busy working on his thesis. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/70 "2003-02-25T07:07:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by buttonjockey308 \* > \*\*Actually, the timeline stretches between 1233 and 1692, in which there were reportedly 9 million people tortured, and nearly 1 million killed, though even the best of cites in this regard fail the accuracy test, in that there weren’t really accurate records kept by the people of the day. \*\* As **HPL** said though, were these caused by Christianity itself, or by other socio-political factors? Christianity does, after all, **directly** condemn such actions. Also, are you aware of the track record that atheistic regimes have in this regard? Would you like us to enlighten you? > [@](#): > > \*\* > It was not until the Salem Witch Trials of 1692 that good records were kept of the 30 people that were killed and the more than 200 people were accused and imprisoned, and eventually released. \*\* Again, are you aware of how these figures compare to those of communities where religion was absent, having been forbidden? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/71 "2003-02-25T07:33:23Z")
\*\*ClawsOfCatt wrote: Not to mention 7,000,000 women burned in the middel ages as “witches.”\*\* Sorry, **ClawsOfCatt** , but I’m going to have to see a reputable cite on this. From what I’ve heard, at BEST the figure is around 100,000 women (and even that figure is inflated). A more accurate figure would probably be in the mid 30,000. Side note: even **ONE** death because of accusations of witchcraft is too many. I’m simply asking for accurate figures, not to trivialiize the deaths of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/72 "2003-02-25T08:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalt \* > **Those are just examples of religion taking advantage of poor/vulnerable people in order to spread the religion. Sure we’ll give you soup, but come pray with me and let me tell you about jesus. It’s no different than Nike donating money to a “nice” cause and telling the world about it. Good publicity, and a de facto, red herring defense against any wrongdoing. Sure the catholic church is responsible for sexual abuse of children, but they run hundreds of soup kitchens for the homeless (where they proselytize).** So hang on… If they do good stuff and the public gets to hear about it, then it is fake because it’s done for effect, so what is your opinion on all the good stuff that may have been done in private? You haven’t heard about it? Ah. ---
**Author:** ![serenitynow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@serenitynow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/serenitynow)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/73 "2003-02-25T14:38:59Z")
I am not a philosopher. When the philosophy professor put a brick on his desk and led a 70 minute discussion of whether there was actually a brick there, I was one of the unenlightened few who simply accepted that there was indeed a brick. I could see it, feel it, hit myself in the head with it, smash windows with it. Of course there was a brick! To me, knowing there is a God is a lot like knowing there was a brick. I know he is there because I talk to him and he talks to me. I feel him, and experience him. To me it would take an unbelievable amount of faith to believe that God did not exist. But believing that God exists is only a beginning, it is not and end unto itself. What anyone believes is critically important. It is central to who and what we are, how we act and how we interpret the world around us. Beliefs are scary things. They cause men to give up their lives or take lives. Sometimes they bring people together and sometimes they drive people apart. Beliefs cause nations to rise and to fall. They cause people to act, for better or worse. Belief in what is generally termed “christianity” does not scare me, but some professed Christians do. I wish that every person who comes to faith in Christ would be required to memorize Romans 2:1, which says “Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” Judgmental people in general scare me. Couple judgment with moral authority, and you get a very scary creature indeed. The most scary people on earth are the ones who claim, and probably genuinely believe, that God has told them to carry out acts of hatred, or who believe that they must defend God’s honor, as if he were incapable of doing that himself. Whether it is someone from Saudi Arabia or Northern Ireland, or the U.S., or wherever, those people are dangerous. Anyone who’s aim is greed and ambition is dangerous. Christianity has certainly shaped our civilization, for better or worse. Often, very often, it has been used as a pretext for political or personal gain. It was used in Europe almost exclusively for that purpose for well over a thousand years. For some reason, even very intelligent people do not look too far behind an evil doer’s claim that they act on behalf of God. Instead of demanding the authority by which the person acts, people tend to simply deride the God that the evil one credits, and cite that person as proof that faith in God is unjustified. Jesus said that if you want to know whether someone is one of his disciples, you look to see if he or she loves people. If they don’t act with love, they are not acting on his authority, no matter what they claim. Loving people are not scary. People who visit the sick and give to the poor and help old ladies cross the street are not the least bit frightening to me. The bible says that love casts out fear, and I for one, believe that to be true. It is not the sheep we should fear, but the wolves. ---
**Author:** ![aggie05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@aggie05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aggie05)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/74 "2003-02-25T18:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I fear all the large, institutionalised religions, but I don’t hate nor fear individual religious people. This is not the same as “hate the sin, love the sinner”, because I don’t fear the belief, just the institution. Does anyone see the distinction here? I DEFINATELY see the distinction! This is much like saying, I like people, one on one, but “en mass” people are horrible, petty, vicious creatures. I have to voice an “I hate” - I hate religious people who sit around and talk to other religios people in public places discussing thier religion and their god in very loud obnoxious voices, thanking their god for everything in their lives, when in fact it is their government that allows them to do this - other countries would persecute, arrest, torture, and kill for this kind of display. ---
**Author:** ![ClawsOfCatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@ClawsOfCatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ClawsOfCatt)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/75 "2003-02-26T19:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*\*\*ClawsOfCatt wrote: > > Not to mention 7,000,000 women burned in the middel ages as “witches.”\*\* > > Sorry, **ClawsOfCatt** , but I’m going to have to see a reputable cite on this. From what I’ve heard, at BEST the figure is around 100,000 women (and even that figure is inflated). A more accurate figure would probably be in the mid 30,000. > > Side note: even **ONE** death because of accusations of witchcraft is too many. I’m simply asking for accurate figures, not to trivialiize the deaths of these people. \*\* This has been established. See Starhawk (Miriam Simos) and her works such as The Spiral Dance. Although I see some sources place the figure at 9,000,000. ---
**Author:** ![ClawsOfCatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@ClawsOfCatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ClawsOfCatt)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/76 "2003-02-26T19:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **As HPL said though, were these caused by Christianity itself, or by other socio-political factors? Christianity does, after all, directly condemn such actions.** Christianity has an established track record of showing that its protections and principles do not apply to people outside Christianity. Look at how the Catholic church stood aside and let the Jews be massacred in WWII. Look at how good Christians hate gays. As for the Burning Times, the church was specifically targeting people it saw as a rival to its power, so Christian principles were tossed out the window. [/QUOTE] \*\* Also, are you aware of the track record that atheistic regimes have in this regard? Would you like us to enlighten you? \*\* [/QUOTE] How does that excuse wars and massacres by Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/77 "2003-02-26T19:33:21Z")
I believe _Burning Times_ is fiction, is it not? Would you mind not generalizing? ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/78 "2003-02-26T19:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Also, are you aware of the track record that atheistic regimes have in this regard? Would you like us to enlighten you? > > How does that excuse wars and massacres by Christians? Both Christians and atheists tend to be people. Some people are narrowminded; some people are violent. The adjective, however, is not the people. Some people will be murderers, bigots, homophobes, racists, and all-around jerks no matter what their adjectives are or what adjectives they have a chip on their shoulders about. Condemning Christians in general for the acts of specific Christians, often in different times and places, is no better than any other bigotry, no more moral. Look how good Christians are not the Catholic Church in WWII. Look at good Christians who support gays, who are gay themselves. Look at good Christians who interact comfortably with pagans, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, atheists, who interact with them comfortably, work with them, support them in their lives and choices, even partner with them. Look how those good Christians weren’t alive during the Burning Times in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/79 "2003-02-26T19:58:11Z")
Hey, there were indeed some very good Catholics during WWII-that’s a different debate. I will speak about one-Monseignor Hugh O’Flaherty. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308/80 "2003-02-26T20:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ClawsOfCatt \* > **Christianity has an established track record of showing that its protections and principles do not apply to people outside Christianity. Look at how the Catholic church stood aside and let the Jews be massacred in WWII.** The Catholic church was definitely lacking in boldness, but this is not an indictment of Christianity in general. At the same time though, you had the likes of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who spoke out publicly against Nazism. While the churches in Germany were too fearful to speak against Nazism, this hardly an indictment of Christianity across the globe. > [@](#): > > \*\*Look at how good Christians hate gays. \*\* A loaded accusation, at best. The Christians who hate gays can not be called “good,” insofar as their actions run counter to the teachings of Christianity. > [@](#): > > **As for the Burning Times, the church was specifically targeting people it saw as a rival to its power, so Christian principles were tossed out the window.** As **Guinastasia** pointed out, _The Burning Times_ was a work of fiction. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Also, are you aware of the track record that atheistic regimes have in this regard? Would you like us to enlighten you? > > How does that excuse wars and massacres by Christians? \*\* It does not, and I never claimed that it does. I’m merely pointing out that the track record of atheists is thousands of times worse. Moreover, how many of these “wars and massacres” were caused by Christianity itself, as opposed to merely being caused by people who called themselves Christians? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-force-to-be-feared-discuss/156308.md?page=5)