No one can safely say anything about the afterlife, but the stuff we do todays will have consquences eventually. What Christanity basically says is that God won’t break the ‘personal relationship’ He has with Christians because of things they do. He also didn’t promise that Christians will be spared the consquences of their folly.
There is a difference about acceptance and approval…God accept Christians basically because they believe that Jesus died for their sins and that they are sinners in need of forgiveness. That doesn’t mean God approves everything that Chirstians do.
These are counterexamples, yes. I stand by my opinion, though. And I’m not talking about Christianity as a whole, nor about Christianity exclusively. Which I realise makes my post somewhat off-topic in this thread.
What I fear is the political influence that Christian extremists have on the politics of my country, both country-wide and locally. Things like:
fighting for creationism to be taught in science classes, and for the supression of instruction of evolution.
pushing for the US to eliminate funding for overseas family planning programs, using debunked reports as justification.
fighting to keep homosexuals from becoming legally married and enjoying the societal benefits thereof.
censorship of books that conflict with strict Christian “morals.”
Fundamentalists are not a problem unique to Christianity, obviously. But (leaving aside terrorism for the moment) in the USA, where I live, it’s the Christian extremists who stand to have the most negative influence on my life and my (future) children’s lives. While I’d like to believe that their effect on my life would be minimal, their strong connection to one of our two major political parties scares me.
Disclaimer: Individually, almost all Christians I know are reasonable, non-frightening people.
“Christianity” is not some monolithic entity with a single agenda they’re intent on pushing on others (other than the common consent that people who do not “know Jesus” should be encouraged to come to “know Him” and commit to His allegiance – but, being urging towards a voluntary action, that would not, I think, count as equivalent to, say, demanding that no one have an abortion because they regard it as a sin).
In Wales, to bring it close to the OP’s home, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, recently named the leader of one of the major branches of Christianity, has been outspoken for personal freedom and for the church to take that into account.
To be sure, what Libertarian has aptly christened “Religion Politicians” will often have personal agendas to push, and as a Christian myself who is well aware of the dangers of what they’re up to and the unscrupulousness they exhibit as a rule, I think one would be wise to be very concerned about what they perpetrate. I see Parthol has given some classic examples of this sort of thing, and drawn the distinction I did between typical believers and the extremists; I know Britain has other examples, and presumably Canada, Australia, etc. have yet others.
As for whether or not we’re capable of independent thought not bound into faith values – I’m confident I can achieve consensus here that I certainly am; the same applies for people as diverse as Jodi, Mangetout, Libertarian, RTFirefly, Duck Duck Goose, Ultress and easily twoscore others, all of whom identify as Christian and who have given serious thought to the doctrines they accept as accurate and to the possibility that they might be erroneous.
Nonsense. We pray for others almost constantly. Come to my church for any occasion of worship, and listen to the subject of our prayers. “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge”, said St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr, as his dying words (Acts 7:60).
I recommend you get to know some more Christians personally, and perhaps you will get a better idea of what concerns them, and what they do all day long.
It won’t help you be less frightened of Christianity in general, which I think you are quite right to fear. Our loyalty to the Lord supercedes anything and everything else. Anything and everything. Think about that for a while.
Which may be why tyrants traditionally hate and fear the Church. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Diocletian, Nero - all saw the danger in having a group which believes in a loyalty higher than theirs.
Christianity deals with the most fundamental questions of all, and gives answers which it claims have consequences greater than any other can be.
Be afraid. Be very afraid, because we mean what we say.
I’ve met plenty of Christians who question God almost constantly. What you’re describing is not belief but brainwashing.
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What do you mean by “total belief?” Someone who accepts whatever Reverend Thunderpulpit says without question, or someone who actually lives their faith (love your neighbor, judge not, etc.)?
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Welcome to Great Debates. Do a search on “Christian,” “Christianity,” and “belief” one night when the hamsters are well-rested and you’ll find plenty of threads where Christians and non-Christians debate those questions.
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That’s not real praying. I’m no longer a Christian, but when I was I prayed for others. My prayers were more of a debate with God or thanking God for the good things (and bad things) I’ve been blessed with. Still are, actually. “Prayers” like you describe are more in line with pestering God, kind of like a four-year-old hanging onto Mommy at the store yelling “But I waaaaaaant it!”
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Okay, you’re going to have to come back and explain that one. You lost me in the paradoxes.
Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
I don’t think “Christianity” (insofar as the organized religion aspect) is a force to be feared. As a christian (not affiliated with any organized religion) I absolutely despise the preachers and teachers.
I hear them on christian radio sometimes as I’m “scanning” channels. The ones I catch, generally sound pretty darn ignorant. I can’t imagine that type of person having a “scary” influence on others’ way of life.
And if the current belief system in America (seemingly a hodge podge of “anything goes” and “if it feels good do it”) is any indication, they “the extreme organized religious types” have NOT had much influence on our culture, scary or otherwise.
Absolutely nothing, apart from those things? Are you SURE you want to defend that tenet?
If so, then I respectfully challenge you to study the history of orphanages, homeless shelters, soup kitches and hospitals in both Europe and the Americas. Care to guess which institutions have been responsible for founding a disproportionately large number of those establishments?
Where, I think, we’ve failed to birfucate here, is the intersection of religion and faith. Religion is a work of man, faith is work of creation, and by whom, (or what) ever you were personally created. I believe it is your tendency to root for the home team, as it were, if you were created as the Christians believe, then you will have a tendency to be Christian, likewise Jew, Pagan, Muslim etc.
Christianity is frightening, however, in the sense that it’s like a loaded gun laying on the floor in a psych ward is frightening. It’s generally harmless, until someone finds out how much power they have when they wield it.
Religion has been the inspiration for some fantastic art and literature among other things. I’d say that’s a pretty big contribution to society as a whole.
In response to the op, I have this to say. I don’t think any spacific religion should ever be feared no matter how evil or hatefull it may be. Religion in and of itself is powerless untill some one follows it. Then it’s the person who’s following it that is evil or hatefull.
Also, it sounds to me, and I could be wrong here, that your beefs with Christianity stem from things that people do, not the fundamentals of the religion itself.
Religion, like any other issues, can be used in politics of country or countries. That when things become dangerous. I believe history has pretty much demostrated that. There are many people who call themselves ‘christians’ because of some other agenda in the past.
Hepcat421 wrote ~
Er, does following a religion makes one evil or hateful? Or do you mean religion is powerless until someone who is hateful/evil follows it?
buttonJockey3000 wrote:
It have already happened in the past and still happening, with Islam.
I frankly believe that the fault lies with the follower of the religion, not with the religion itself.
I never understood this. Your fundamentalist Christian household is a good reason to change your denomination, it’s NOT a good reason to completely dismiss the notion of God. Your family’s personal religious beliefs don’t have an effect on the existence of God.