# Christianity is a goddamned religion; deal with it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000 "2001-07-10T22:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/1 "2001-07-10T22:27:04Z")
(This is my first rant, so if you don’t like reading newbie rants, then fuck off. If you’ve got nothing better to do than critique my level of venom, then I’ll let you polish my knob to pass the time). This rant was sparked by **walor** in [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=77488](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=77488) > [@](#): > > **Funnily enough, Jesus despised religion too. We mustn’t confuse religion and Christianity though… they’re not the same thing. I reject religion but I’m a Christian.** Now, I don’t mean to single out **walor** ; I don’t even know the guy, so it’s nothing personal. It’s just a good summary of the shit I heard over and over again back when I was a Christian. I’m sure most of you have heard it. A Christian with a shit-eating grin stands up in church, Bible study, the fucking supermarket, or wherever, and says that religion doesn’t save; Jesus does. Guess what, genuises? **BELIEVING THAT JESUS SAVES IS A RELIGION!!!** Believing that you must submit to Allah is a religion. Believing that God’s word is contained in the Torah and the Talmud is a religion. We call these religions, respectively, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. No, **walor** , Jesus did not despise religion. If he had, he wouldn’t have said anything like “No one gets to the Father except through me.” He would have instead said something like “Think for yourselves, dammit! I’m not the key to the Father, you’re not the key to the Father, hell, there might not even BE a Father!” I’m sorry, Mr. Shit-Eating Grin Christian in the Supermarket, but your statement that you can have Jesus without religion is pure steamin’ bullshit. **walor** and friends, if you reject religion, you cannot be a Christian. If you want to say, “I believe in Jesus, but I don’t think you need to eat crackers on Sunday to be saved,” then FINE, say it. If you want to say, “Baptism, schmaptism, I love Jesus and that’s enough for me,” then FINE, say it (although I reserve the right to induce vomiting). I don’t know why (many) Christians like to do say that they don’t like religion. I suspect it’s some sort of wannabe-ism. “Oooh, Ms. New Ager gets to pray to crystals and smoke weed, while I’m stuck listening to some hymn written in 16th Century Germany [one of the happiest places ever!]. Fuck that noise, we don’t need these stodgy rituals! We can be cool too!” So let’s review, shall we? Christianity is a religion. Face the fucking music and accept it. No one thinks you’re “cool” because you pretend it’s not. And you’re not fooling anybody. Well, except maybe others with cranium-studded colons. Quix ---
**Author:** ![heembo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f6c823/32.png) [@heembo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heembo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/2 "2001-07-10T22:35:42Z")
quixotic78, if you were an underage drunk teenage girl and we were alone in a room with a bed, there would be a wet spot on your belly… Man that got me hot! ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/3 "2001-07-10T22:37:27Z")
What exactly is your definition of religion? You never actaully seemed to explain that. It would help considering that your rant was something along those lines. Oh, and don’t forget. Atheism is a religion too! ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/4 "2001-07-10T23:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sterra \* > \*\* > > Oh, and don’t forget. Atheism is a religion too! \*\* That’s right. Every morning we atheists wake up and pray to our bongs for a few hours. ---
**Author:** ![Nothing\_But\_Net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e47c2d/32.png) [@Nothing\_But\_Net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nothing_But_Net)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/5 "2001-07-10T23:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\*(This is my first rant, so if you don’t like reading newbie rants, then fuck off. If you’ve got nothing better to do than critique my level of venom, then I’ll let you polish my knob to pass the time). > > Quix > \*\* We can only pray that this first rant is also your last… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/6 "2001-07-10T23:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by heembo \* > \*\*quixotic78, if you were an underage drunk teenage girl and we were alone in a room with a bed, there would be a wet spot on your belly… > > Man that got me hot! \*\* You know I work in a pretty stodgy office. I could get fired for laughing too hard. Bastard! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/7 "2001-07-10T23:45:19Z")
I’d like to hear your thoughts on the difference between the definition of “belief” and the definition of “religion”. Not that I disagree with you. But I think there’s going to be a whole lot of confusion to be avoided with that distinction made. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/8 "2001-07-10T23:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\*Guess what, genuises? **BELIEVING THAT JESUS SAVES IS A RELIGION!!!** \*\* Fortunately, there’s another religion that believes that **GRETZKY STUFFS THE REBOUND!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/9 "2001-07-10T23:54:19Z")
I would also like definitions of ‘religion’ from both sides of the issue. The way I see it, anytime you worship something or adhere to a set of beliefs that are not scientifically based, you belong to a religion. I’m a Christian and I’ve always thought of Christianity as a religion, regardless that I don’t belong to any specified branch of Christianity and prefer to follow my own interpretation instead of someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/10 "2001-07-11T00:12:52Z")
We can do this a number of ways. We can go look up religion in a dictionary, and see if Christianity fits the criteria laid out there. I have a B.A. in Religious Studies; I can recommend some books for everyone to read. I can try to remember some of the stuff I learned (hehe) and take a stab at religion vs. plain vanilla philosophy. We can start a GD thread (or do a search; I’m sure it’s been done) and see if there’s some information there. Or, we can just stop fucking around and say that, by 999 out of 1000 definitions, Christianity is a religion, and everyone fucking knows it. Is atheism a religion? Should Confucianism be included in a book on religion, or is it just a moral philosophy? What about Taoism? These are valid questions, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Christianity. Hell, I challenge you to come up with a definition of religion that **doesn’t** include Christianity. So let’s try it this way. Since some of you insist on being anal, I’ll define religion as belief in the supernatural, god or gods, spirits, the importance of faith, that sort of thing. You know, the everyday definition of religion :rolleyes:. If you want to continue saying, “I’m a non-religious Christian,” you do your own work and justify your absurd position. I’d love to see it. Quix ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/11 "2001-07-11T00:33:27Z")
**quixotic78** - Well, I’m with you on this. I have no idea what a person means when they claim they are a non-religious Christian. The only thing I can think of is that they’re just phrasing their thoughts i a confusing way. Maybe they mean they don’t actively attend church. Maybe, like me, they don’t belong to an organized and recognized branch of Christianity (Lutherans, Catholics, Presbeterians, etc) and by saying they’re not religious, they’re really saying they’re non-denominational. Maybe they just have their heads up their ass and don’t realize Chistianity IS a religion. Next time you hear someone say this, ask them if Judaism is a religion. If they say yes, remind them that Christianity is a messianic cult of Judaism. This may start an argument, but that’s what is is when you get down to brass tacks. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/12 "2001-07-11T00:36:10Z")
Say, if Christianity isn’t a religion, does that mean Congress could outlaw it? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/13 "2001-07-11T00:38:11Z")
quixotic, I understand where you’re coming from, and what you’re saying. However, I believe the problem is that you are the one being too anal about this. These people are saying that they’re non-religious in the sense that they don’t follow a specific, institutionalized religion, “and you fucking know it.” 🙂 Granted, you have a legitimate beef with the fact that these people tend to be hypocritical idiots (as in they say they’re Christians, but follow zero of its inherent tenets). ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/14 "2001-07-11T00:45:38Z")
As a non-Christian, I think a legitimate argument can be made that Jesus disliked religion, or at least religion as practiced in first-century Palestine. His statements throughout the Gospels to the Pharisees, and his specific statement that “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” tend to lend credence to that view. One can follow the teachings and commands of Jesus to the letter, as described in the Bible, and never step foot in a church building or be a member of any organized Christian denomination. Does that make a follower of Jesus a member of a “religion”? I suppose to the extent that (as the courts have often ruled) any set of beliefs which deals with “ultimate concerns” is a religion, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/15 "2001-07-11T00:54:48Z")
Perhaps those who profess to be Christians who reject religion mean that they reject _organized_ religion. There are many who see their relationship with God as a strictly personal thing, and refuse to adhere to someone else’s definition of what that relationship should be. Can one person constitute a religion? If so, then I am by myself a religion. This has interesting implications. Can I declare myself Pope? Nah, then I’d have to have servants (I think they’re called Cardinals, or is it Rams?), and I want this to be a strictly one person religion (well, I might let my fiancee join after we’re married, if she asks real nice and uses the magic word). I think I may be treading awfully close to solipsism here. But then again, I’ve always thought solipsism is as much a religion as a philosophical construct. Really, if you beleive that you are the only person who actually exists (and I’m not entirely convinced that I’m not; after all, I know that I exist, but I’m not quite so sure about the rest of you), God must think pretty highly of you (this, of course, assumes that a solipsistic universe makes the theory of evolution invalid). Speaking of which, don’t you hate it when someone seems to addressing your topic, but then goes of on some unrelated tangent of his own (and uses a bunch of parenthetical inserts in the process) without regard to other people who are actually trying to talk about the topic at hand (if such people actually exist). ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/16 "2001-07-11T01:05:06Z")
“Christianity is a **goddamned** religion” (bolding mine) Am I the only one who noticed the irony in this? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/17 "2001-07-11T01:26:19Z")
To me a non-religious Christian sounds like one of those folks (Quebec is filled with them) who were baptized and confirmed and have never been in a church since except on tour. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/18 "2001-07-11T01:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sterra \* > > Oh, and don’t forget. Atheism is a religion too! I dunno if you were just joking or not, **Sterra** , but I can never let this one go. Atheism is not a religion. It is precisely the _absence_ of religion. Fun reading on the subject: [Austin Cline’s Atheism FAQ](http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/blfaq_atheismdef.htm) ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/19 "2001-07-11T02:06:28Z")
hey, hey, hey. let’s not make this another “is zero a number?” debate. ---
**Author:** ![Searching\_For\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Searching\_For\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Searching_For_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000/20 "2001-07-11T02:10:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Number Six \* > \*\*Perhaps those who profess to be Christians who reject religion mean that they reject _organized_ religion. There are many who see their relationship with God as a strictly personal thing, and refuse to adhere to someone else’s definition of what that relationship should be. \*\* Well, that’s where I fall when it comes down to it. When questioned, I say that I am a Christian. Is Christianity a religion? Yes. Am I religious? No, I don’t think so. I would say I’m spiritual. Do I reject organized religion? Pretty much, because I don’t respect The Christian Church as an institution…to me, the (Ideal) Church is far, far different. But that’s just moi. Zero is a number…kinda…kinda black is the absence of color and yet is a color, too, right? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-a-goddamned-religion-deal-with-it/72000.md?page=2)