# Christianity is irrational, but is being a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628 "2013-01-18T17:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/181 "2013-01-21T03:03:05Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Hey **JamesE.** > I’m flattered you registered because of me. I’m afraid I’m going to disappoint you, in part because I didn’t quite say that------in those terms anyway. > > I guess I’d direct you to the wiki link I just cited on Pascal’s Wager. It has some information-----said likely more eloquently than you or I probably----on the role of “reason” in establishing a belief in God, including the limitations Pascal saw in relying on reason. Should I say, I re-registered. This is JamesE. I couldn’t remember this account name (I used to actively be on here, then left because I was being stupid and wouldn’t admit it. I did indeed request the other account be removed because it is in violation of the board policy.) ANYWAYS, Pascal’s Wager in no way proves the rationality of truly believing in Christianty or, even, what this thread is about. Oh, and in reply to the topic of this thread, yes! Pretending to be a Christian could be very advantageous (even though I would never do such a crime to the Atheist community.) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/182 "2013-01-21T03:16:16Z")
> [@simster](#): > > “c’mon dude” - this is why I really regret engaging with you - but here we go again - > > Re-read it - > > The definition of FAITH - biblical - the one you are using - is based on what? > > Hope, feeling, and “lack of evidence” - it is therefore the opposite of rational - > > Hint - I even gave you the definition of rational - “reasonable and logical” - for something to be those things - there must be some form of OBJECTIVE evidence for it. Anything less is clearly ‘irrational’ by definition. > Then you go on to actually prove the point - there is OBJECTIVE evidence that “Bill Evans”\* is a Jazz Pianist - your SUBJECTIVE opinion is that he is the “best”. So, we can all agree on part of that - and then we can have a reasonable discussion on what makes him ‘the best’ or not - since the subjective part requires nothing more than FEELING. > > as far as ‘waltzing in’ - I’ve been in this thread since the beginning - it was you that first dropped by to drop a load of BS on the floor and proclaim “I don’t care to debate this” - so, which is it? I also gave my OBJECTIVE take on it by using EVIDENCE - now - debate the logic or go home. > > Is Christanity based on FAITH or OBJECTIVE evidence? > > In order for a belief to be RATIONAL - I gave you the definition - it must have some OBJECTIVE evidence to back it up - if you believe “Bill Evans” is the greatest “running back” ever - then he should have at least played football, otherwise what you have is nothing but an IRRATIONAL belief - It does not hold up to REASON. > > Give me one BIBLICAL or RELIGIOUS definition of FAITH that is rational - based on OBJECTIVE evidence or LOGIC and REASON- The dictionary reference includes the word “TRUST”, but bear in mind that that usually has with it some OBJECTIVE evidence to go along with it. > (I am capitalizing KEY WORDS for you since you have such a hard time understanding them - maybe if you went back to school and finished basic logic you wouldn’t have such a hard time with it.) > \*you’ve used crap names before to play your fucking woosh game - I again, for lack of reason, take you at your word here. simster I’m not using any definition of faith. The bible’s definition I believe is at Hebrews 11:1. (iirc), but I never used it. But you used this: _“‘Faith’ is, by definition, irrational -”_ (your words) as the premise of your point. So why don’t we use your definition, ok? Just cite for me, from any dictionary, the definition of faith. We’ll start there, ok? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/183 "2013-01-21T03:17:33Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > Should I say, I re-registered. This is JamesE. I couldn’t remember this account name (I used to actively be on here, then left because I was being stupid and wouldn’t admit it. I did indeed request the other account be removed because it is in violation of the board policy.) > > ANYWAYS, Pascal’s Wager in no way proves the rationality of truly believing in Christianty or, even, what this thread is about. > > Oh, and in reply to the topic of this thread, yes! Pretending to be a Christian could be very advantageous (even though I would never do such a crime to the Atheist community.) What does Pascal’s Wager say about reason? Can you show that to me, please? Because I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/184 "2013-01-21T03:21:02Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > What does Pascal’s Wager say about reason? Can you show that to me, please? > > Because I’m not sure. Excuse me, it contains the word reason over 20 times. Re-read it. It states very early that reason removes religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/185 "2013-01-21T03:31:38Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > simster > I’m not using any definition of faith. The bible’s definition I believe is at Hebrews 11:1. (iirc), but I never used it. > > But you used this: _“‘Faith’ is, by definition, irrational -”_ (your words) as the premise of your point. > > So why don’t we use your definition, ok? Just cite for me, from any dictionary, the definition of faith. > > We’ll start there, ok? If we’re going to start anywhere, it should be with supposed evidence you claim has been here for centuries. Where’s that evidence? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/186 "2013-01-21T03:33:42Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > Excuse me, it contains the word reason over 20 times. Re-read it. > > It states very early that reason removes religion. Methinks you didn’t read that… ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/187 "2013-01-21T03:36:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we’re going to start anywhere, it should be with supposed evidence you claim has been here for centuries. Where’s that evidence? Easy… **simster** is scouring the internet for a definition that doesn’t make him look silly. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/188 "2013-01-21T03:37:06Z")
Quoting: “If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous.” Methinks YOU didn’t read one of the opening paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/189 "2013-01-21T03:39:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we’re going to start anywhere, it should be with supposed evidence you claim has been here for centuries. Where’s that evidence? Want to start with Pascal’s Wager? I won’t bring up your earlier summary. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/190 "2013-01-21T03:42:31Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > Quoting: > > “If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous.” > > Methinks YOU didn’t read one of the opening paragraphs. I actually thought that would be the\* last\* thing you’d quote. What does that quote mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/191 "2013-01-21T03:44:21Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > A wager has to be the most disingenuous method of professing belief there is. “What if you’re wrong/what have you got to lose” sounds like a moderate, reasonable stance with regards to \*debating \*the existence of a god, but are you certain the jealous, omniscient Christian God will be placated by a half-hearted gamble? It’s my understanding that He requires absolute belief, adherence, and total rejection of all other possibilities. > > “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Hebrews 11:6 > Can’t blame anyone for hedging their bet, but somehow I doubt that mere posturing is enough to get subscribers through the Pearly Gates. I don’t know whether my decision to be a believer (or rather the inclination I have to be a believer) is dishonest or not. But, to borrow from William James again, some things become true because one accepts them without proof or even evidence–i.e. the belief that one can do something one has never done before. For me, deciding to at least try to be a believer has helped me become a better person, to get over myself, to be more accepting of others and even to help people here and there. I’ve also felt on occasion something that seems divine, that gives me peace and courage to get through difficult things. If my belief is wrong (or if it turns out as you say that my hedging is not enough to earn me eternal life), so be it. I know I’m far from really living Christ’s new law but it hasn’t been posturing. It’s just the best I can do. I don’t think I would have done better, or as well, without my faith. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/192 "2013-01-21T03:45:38Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > simster > I’m not using any definition of faith. The bible’s definition I believe is at Hebrews 11:1. (iirc), but I never used it. > > But you used this: _“‘Faith’ is, by definition, irrational -”_ (your words) as the premise of your point. > > So why don’t we use your definition, ok? Just cite for me, from any dictionary, the definition of faith. > > We’ll start there, ok? I did - try reading for comprehension - in the very post - I cited the DEFINITON for FAITH based on the subject at hand - the ‘Bible and Christianity’ - I even then followed with my REASONING for rational vs irational side of it. One more time - for clarity - the definitions of [QUOTE=Dictionary - FAITH] 1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability. 2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5.a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Dictionary - Rational] 1.agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development. 2.having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator. 3.being in or characterized by full possession of one’s reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational. 4.endowed with the faculty of reason: rational beings. 5.of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers: the rational faculty. [/QUOTE] and the usage of the word REASON in this context is the verb - [QUOTE= Reason (verb)] 8.to think or argue in a logical manner. 9.to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. 10.to urge reasons which should determine belief or action. [/QUOTE] ball is in your court - dude - show how ‘faith’ or ‘Christianity’ is RATIONAL - subject to reason (the verb) and simple logic. If it is not rational - it is, by definition, ‘irrational’ (not rational). Or are you, by chance - trying to say that “rational people believe Christianity, therefore it is rational” - because - well, I’ll give you that one - but it is not what the premise of this thread was about when it said that Christianity was ‘irational’. Of course, you’re more likely to say “there, see - the dictionary does not use rational or irrational in the definition, so you’re making it up” - choose whichever suits you best since you wont be able to come up with a RATIONAL arguement for Christianity. (hint - there’s your escape hatch - you were meaning ‘rational’ in an entirely different sense - go, run with it, enjoy the masturbatory victory) ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/193 "2013-01-21T03:47:10Z")
raindog, You’re obviously the one having an issue comprehending Pascal’s Wager. Both Czarcasm and I both are disagreeing with you on rather obvious points, and you’re telling us we don’t understand it. Pascal’s Wager is NOT the bible, you can’t just take the words “I am God’s Son” and turn it into “Jesus is God” like people do with the bible. That Wiki entry is not a bunch of non-literal sentences. It is quite literal. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/194 "2013-01-21T03:48:52Z")
Why don’t YOU take a turn and quote something that PROVES the rationality in believing in Christianity? You’re just going 'round and 'round with a bunch of nonsense while insulting other poster’s ability to comprehend simple sentences. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/195 "2013-01-21T03:51:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I did - try reading for comprehension - in the very post - I cited the DEFINITON for FAITH based on the subject at hand - the ‘Bible and Christianity’ - I even then followed with my REASONING for rational vs irational side of it. > > One more time - for clarity - the definitions of > > and the usage of the word REASON in this context is the verb - > > ball is in your court - dude - show how ‘faith’ or ‘Christianity’ is RATIONAL - subject to reason (the verb) and simple logic. > > If it is not rational - it is, by definition, ‘irrational’ (not rational). > > Or are you, by chance - trying to say that “rational people believe Christianity, therefore it is rational” - because - well, I’ll give you that one - but it is not what the premise of this thread was about when it said that Christianity was ‘irational’. Of course, you’re more likely to say “there, see - the dictionary does not use rational or irrational in the definition, so you’re making it up” - choose whichever suits you best since you wont be able to come up with a RATIONAL arguement for Christianity. > (hint - there’s your escape hatch - you were meaning ‘rational’ in an entirely different sense - go, run with it, enjoy the masturbatory victory) So…do I understand that you don’t really have a definition of faith that says it is, _by definition_, irrational? You kind of made that up in a fit of bravado? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/196 "2013-01-21T03:53:40Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > So…do I understand that you don’t really have a definition of faith that says it is, _by definition_, irrational? > > You kind of made that up in a fit of bravado? You really have trouble with reading for comprehension - but, as predicted - I figured you would take the escape hatch - need 5 mins to finish your ‘celebration’? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/197 "2013-01-21T03:56:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You really have trouble with reading for comprehension… I think that’s pretty clear. He’s trying to tell Czarcasm and I that we were unable to understand a simple Wiki entry. raindog, Once again, as has been requested by several individuals, give us your magical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/198 "2013-01-21T04:04:02Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > raindog, You’re obviously the one having an issue comprehending Pascal’s Wager. Both Czarcasm and I both are disagreeing with you on rather obvious points, and you’re telling us we don’t understand it. Pascal’s Wager is NOT the bible, you can’t just take the words “I am God’s Son” and turn it into “Jesus is God” like people do with the bible. That Wiki entry is not a bunch of non-literal sentences. It is quite literal. I don’t think you understand Pascal’s Wager, or at least it looks that way. When you state “It states very early that reason removes religion”, and you quote the one passage that is _most damaging_ to your [apparent] position, it seems like you don’t quite understand. I mean no harm. He didn’t believe one could rely _solely_ on reason, but he was quite clear that one’s religion would be absurd without it. Do you read differently? The absurdity of your posts, and the rabid, senseless Abbott & Costello atheism that I’m hearing, is that his whole treatise was built on his _reasonings_. Scholars of all stripes have been debating Pascal’s Wager for centuries, and it is the foundation, in part, for everything to game theory to probability theory, and it is an irrational piece of work? Is Ashton Kutcher hiding in my closet? C’mon, tell me. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/199 "2013-01-21T04:07:31Z")
No, Ashton Kutcher is not hiding in your closet. He is hiding in a fictitious closet that I am going to refer to as “Being a homosexual but not being public about it.” Anyway, besides the fact that your question sounds nice and, yes, goes along with Pascal’s Wager, it essentially means nothing. Anyway, stop questioning my reading comprehension. If I don’t understand it, guess what? That’s not the issue here. _ **YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE EVIDENCE THAT CHRISTIANITY IS LOGICAL/RATIONAL/WHATEVER.** _ Where is it? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/200 "2013-01-21T04:09:12Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You really have trouble with reading for comprehension - but, as predicted - I figured you would take the escape hatch - need 5 mins to finish your ‘celebration’? It’s possible that I have a reading comprehension problem. Please type a bit slower, as that helps. But we’ll start with one thing at a time. You seem to building a case on “facts”----like the definition of faith-----and it just seems to me that if the premise is wrong, then the conclusions drawn from those premises are likely wrong. Just give me the definition of faith, and we’ll proceed. Humor me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628.md?page=11)