# Christianity is irrational, but is being a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628 "2013-01-18T17:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/21 "2013-01-18T20:21:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I suppose there is something to the social club aspect of it. You know, knowing all the right handshakes. When to stand, when to sit. When to chime in with the amen. It gives a sense of belonging and that’s comforting to many/most. So in that context, it’s rational. > > One might ask, why not just join the golf club? Those have common rules and familiar rituals too. Sure. But how many people would want to spend eternity with their lousy golf score? 50 years ago if you were Jewish they wouldn’t let you in. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/22 "2013-01-18T20:22:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Belief was never mentioned at home, but right actions were taught by daily example. > Possibly because of this, I have never disliked religion. I think it has some purpose in our evolution. > I don’t have much truck with the “religion is the cause of most of our wars” school of thought because that is manifestly done by mad, manipulative and power-hungry men who cloak their ambition in God. > I number believers of all sorts among my friends. Some of them are praying for me. I’m happy they wish to do this, I really am, but I think science may be a better bet. > [@](#): > > So what shall I make of the voice that spoke to me recently as I was scuttling around getting ready for yet another spell on a chat-show sofa? > More accurately, it was a memory of a voice in my head, and it told me that everything was OK and things were happening as they should. For a moment, the world had felt at peace. Where did it come from? > Me, actually — the part of all of us that, in my case, caused me to stand in awe the first time I heard Thomas Tallis’s Spem in alium, and the elation I felt on a walk one day last February, when the light of the setting sun turned a ploughed field into shocking pink; I believe it’s what Abraham felt on the mountain and Einstein did when it turned out that E=mc2. > It’s that moment, that brief epiphany when the universe opens up and shows us something, and in that instant we get just a sense of an order greater than Heaven and, as yet at least, beyond the grasp of Stephen Hawking. It doesn’t require worship, but, I think, rewards intelligence, observation and enquiring minds. > I don’t think I’ve found God, but I may have seen where gods come from. – Terry Pratchett ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/23 "2013-01-18T20:24:35Z")
Not just Christian vs non-Christian. In Shakespeare’s day lots of Catholics had to pretend to be Protestants or else. There is some speculation that Shakespeare was, at some time, Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/24 "2013-01-18T20:25:44Z")
I don’t have the time, or frankly, to wade into this thread, and I’m sensitive to threadshitting. But I think it’s worth noting that no where else IRL do I see so often the words “irrational” (and rational), “illogical” (and logical), and “evidence”, and “proof”, so [apparently] misunderstood, and misapplied. And I don’t say this as a theist. A full blown _agnostic_ should be able to see it. But both theism, and atheism are subjective belief systems (unlike dead centered unbiased _agnosticism_) and so the [constant] misuse of these words is the apparent merging of _subjectivity_ with _objectivity_ into something we consider to be “truth” or “reality.” At least one side of this is comfortable calling it what it is: _Faith._ And so while I have the greatest respect for some willing to put lipstick on an intellectual pig and call it Cinderella, words like \*“pretty well established that Christianity is an irrational belief system. It does not use reason to arrive at its conclusions” \*are so deeply incorrect, (and dare I say it, irrational?) that it’s hard to see a debate on the OP’s _merits._ And I would ask the OP, ever heard of _Blaise Pascal_? ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/25 "2013-01-18T20:39:58Z")
I agree entirely with the OP. I don’t think my sect of Christianity makes any sense rationally, but honestly, if I could flip a switch and believe, I think I would. I already conform outwardly to a lot of things because the community and the experience of belonging to the community is something I can’t get anywhere else, and it’s worth it to me. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I suppose there is something to the social club aspect of it. You know, knowing all the right handshakes. When to stand, when to sit. When to chime in with the amen. It gives a sense of belonging and that’s comforting to many/most. So in that context, it’s rational. > > One might ask, why not just join the golf club? Those have common rules and familiar rituals too. Sure. But how many people would want to spend eternity with their lousy golf score? Actually, where my parents live, joining the golf club has provided them with more of a community than they find at church. Where I live – well, okay, I haven’t joined the golf club, but I’ve tried a couple of other social groups, and nowhere else have I found the kind of tight-knit looking-out-for-each-other welcoming love that I get from my church community. We watch each others’ kids, give each other wedding and baby showers, do favors for each other, bring meals to people who are sick, help people find jobs, organize charitable events, organize musical events (and boy, until I organized a major Christmas one last year I had no idea how much work and love and sacrifice and exchange goes into it) – the love and belonging and acceptance and doing things for each other is not something I know how to find anywhere else. Also, I’d add to the OP: participating in church life actually does make me a better and happier person. When I go to church, for instance, I’m reminded that I should try to understand where people are coming from rather than just getting upset at them. Not that there aren’t other places to get that message, of course, and not that I haven’t imbibed some damaging things as well (…sometimes, you _do_ just need to get angry), but all in all it makes me kinder and more patient and happier. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/26 "2013-01-18T20:51:23Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t have the time, or frankly, to wade into this thread, and I’m sensitive to threadshitting. > > But I think it’s worth noting that no where else IRL do I see so often the words “irrational” (and rational), “illogical” (and logical), and “evidence”, and “proof”, so [apparently] misunderstood, and misapplied. > > And I don’t say this as a theist. A full blown _agnostic_ should be able to see it. > > But both theism, and atheism are subjective belief systems (unlike dead centered unbiased _agnosticism_) and so the [constant] misuse of these words is the apparent merging of _subjectivity_ with _objectivity_ into something we consider to be “truth” or “reality.” > > At least one side of this is comfortable calling it what it is: _Faith._ > > And so while I have the greatest respect for some willing to put lipstick on an intellectual pig and call it Cinderella, words like \*“pretty well established that Christianity is an irrational belief system. It does not use reason to arrive at its conclusions” \*are so deeply incorrect, (and dare I say it, irrational?) that it’s hard to see a debate on the OP’s _merits._ > > And I would ask the OP, ever heard of _Blaise Pascal_? Since you announced that you haven’t the time to devote to the thread, I’ll treat this as a drive-by post and kindly refrain from addressing your points, lest you become embroiled in spite of yourself. If you wish to engage in a proper discussion, let me know, and I’ll engage with you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/27 "2013-01-18T20:56:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Since you announced that you haven’t the time to devote to the thread, I’ll treat this as a drive-by post and kindly refrain from addressing your points, lest you become embroiled in spite of yourself. > > If you wish to engage in a proper discussion, let me know, and I’ll engage with you. Peermission to cut, paste and use this post when appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/28 "2013-01-18T20:59:09Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > But both theism, and atheism are subjective belief systems (unlike dead centered unbiased _agnosticism_) and so the [constant] misuse of these words is the apparent merging of _subjectivity_ with _objectivity_ into something we consider to be “truth” or “reality.” Agnosticism isn’t dead center, it’s pro-religion. It’s granting religion a special status that we don’t grant to other baseless, irrational claims; people aren’t “agnostic” about fairies or Santa Claus or werewolves. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m not nearly so hostile to religion as a concept as some other folks around here, since it’s here to stay (for my lifetime, at least) and it can be a net benefit to society. I see no reason to buy that religion can be of net benefit. That’s just one of those baseless things believers repeat over and over so often it gets taken for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/29 "2013-01-18T21:01:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Peermission to cut, paste and use this post when appropriate? Fine by me. I could be wrong, but **raindog** ’s post reeked of bad faith to me: starting with an escape clause, ending with a smug question (if Blaise Pascal is germaine to the discussion, just make the point you wish to make), and with some actual substance in between, that’d I be happy to address if **raindog** demonstrates the intent to engage in a debate in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/30 "2013-01-18T21:07:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I see no reason to buy that religion can be of net benefit. That’s just one of those baseless things believers repeat over and over so often it gets taken for truth. Although you may ultimately disagree, I think Alain De Botton provides a [decent case](http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html?utm_content=ted-androidapp&utm_source=facebook.com&awesm=on.ted.com_cKzG&utm_medium=on.ted.com-android-share&utm_campaign=) that religion has some very beneficial aspects to it. Whether it actually nets out is debatable, but I’m linking to the video in an effort to demonstrate that it’s not simply baseless. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/31 "2013-01-18T21:22:32Z")
> [@raspberry hunter](#): > > Also, I’d add to the OP: participating in church life actually does make me a better and happier person. When I go to church, for instance, I’m reminded that I should try to understand where people are coming from rather than just getting upset at them. Not that there aren’t other places to get that message, of course, and not that I haven’t imbibed some damaging things as well (…sometimes, you do just need to get angry), but all in all it makes me kinder and more patient and happier. I tried to cover that with “moral instruction for those who wouldn’t otherwise seek it out”, but you’ve fleshed that idea out. There are positive moral messages in the Bible that people can benefit from exposure to (as well as some awful ones). > [@Der Trihs](#): > > I see no reason to buy that religion can be of net benefit. That’s just one of those baseless things believers repeat over and over so often it gets taken for truth. The basis would be that (can) influence people to act in a way that benefits society. I think the power of this effect is fairly weak; people act the way they act and seek to rationalize it after the fact. But, Christianity could provide: - An external moral code for those that need one - Psychic benefits: peace of mind, optimism - Incentive to charity Which could all be benefits to society. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/32 "2013-01-18T21:32:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But, Christianity could provide: > > - An external moral code for those that need one > - Psychic benefits: peace of mind, optimism > - Incentive to charity It “could” do lots of things; I see little evidence it does, _especially_ on the scale necessary to outweigh the damage that it does. Which is necessary if it’s to qualify as a “net benefit to society”. The damage done by religion is enormous; therefore, the benefits would have to be even more enormous, and I see no evidence they are even close. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/33 "2013-01-18T21:35:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It “could” do lots of things; I see little evidence it does, _especially_ on the scale necessary to outweigh the damage that it does. Which is necessary if it’s to qualify as a “net benefit to society”. The damage done by religion is enormous; therefore, the benefits would have to be even more enormous, and I see no evidence they are even close. Ok, before I attempt some sort of calculation, can you detail the damage done (to the United States specifically) as you see it? ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/34 "2013-01-18T22:07:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Spun off of [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676678) > > I’m an atheist, of the sort that’s never been religious or spiritual at all. I live in a heavily Protestant area of Central Kentucky. > > In the above thread, (and elsewhere, of course) it has been pretty well established that Christianity is an irrational belief system. It does not use reason to arrive at its conclusions. > > However, I posit that in spite of this, **being** a Christian can be be entirely rational. Why? Because, at least where I live, it can provide: > > - A close-knit community of fellow believers > - A hub for charitable activity > - A (somewhat) comforting explanation for death and loss, and the promise of heaven and perfect justice in the afterlife > - Moral instruction for those who wouldn’t otherwise seek it out > - Material aid in trying times > - Social capital > - The protection of being in the majority > > Now, I was not raised in a religious home. The idea has always been foreign to me, I don’t think I could be a believer no matter how hard I tried, I’m simply not wired that way, whether from nature or nurture or both. > > But if you were a believer, mightn’t it be entirely rational to remain so, whether or not you genuinely subscribed to the beliefs of Christianity? > > (I’m sure this applies equally well to other religions, but I’m not in a position to know the extent to which this is the case, hence the focus on Christianity.) No, I don’t think it is rational to be a Christian. Yes, there are benefits, but there are also drawbacks. For example, getting creationism taught in schools, and opposing gay marriage. There are things that give the same benefits as Christianity, but without the drawbacks, for example, Unitarian Universalism. It would be more rational to choose one of those options. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/35 "2013-01-18T22:15:57Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > But both theism, and atheism are subjective belief systems (unlike dead centered unbiased _agnosticism_) and so the [constant] misuse of these words is the apparent merging of _subjectivity_ with _objectivity_ into something we consider to be “truth” or “reality.” > > At least one side of this is comfortable calling it what it is: _Faith._ this is complete rubish, there is NO evidence for anything in any religion at any point in human history, none, nothing, nada, zip, zero, not a particle, not a shred, not a drop, not a hanging chad. belief in the supernatural is 100% based on the believers belief in the people who told them this nonsense in the first place. calling the lack of belief in things with no evidence a “subjective belief system” means you are also agnostic about dragons, trolls, ewoks, unicorns, flying carpets, light sabers, and every other myth/fantasy/sci-fi contraption ever put down on paper or made available online. do you honestly mean to say you are not sure about Jar Jar Binks, I mean he could be real right? what about Raven, he could have created the world as we know it, he could have put both the sun and the moon in the sky right? he could have caused the tides (note the sun/moon bits were actually separate from the tides) there are some 6000 religions that exist/ed in human history that we know of, are you really agnostic about every last one of them? or just you know the one about Jesus? (note I am not raging at **raindog** so much as the whole concept of agnostics in general. saying we cant know for sure about god really does mean we cant be sure about that other planet 498743294832 billion light years away that also just grounded their entire fleet of dream liners for having hot batteries) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/36 "2013-01-18T23:44:49Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > this is complete rubish, there is NO evidence for anything in any religion at any point in human history, none, nothing, nada, zip, zero, not a particle, not a shred, not a drop, not a hanging chad. belief in the supernatural is 100% based on the believers belief in the people who told them this nonsense in the first place. calling the lack of belief in things with no evidence a “subjective belief system” means you are also agnostic about dragons, trolls, ewoks, unicorns, flying carpets, light sabers, and every other myth/fantasy/sci-fi contraption ever put down on paper or made available online. do you honestly mean to say you are not sure about Jar Jar Binks, I mean he could be real right? what about Raven, he could have created the world as we know it, he could have put both the sun and the moon in the sky right? he could have caused the tides (note the sun/moon bits were actually separate from the tides) there are some 6000 religions that exist/ed in human history that we know of, are you really agnostic about every last one of them? or just you know the one about Jesus? > > (note I am not raging at **raindog** so much as the whole concept of agnostics in general. saying we cant know for sure about god really does mean we cant be sure about that other planet 498743294832 billion light years away that also just grounded their entire fleet of dream liners for having hot batteries) It’s been my experience that being clever for the sake of being clever often severely diminishes the effectiveness of your argument. Oh, and punctuation and paragraph breaks are your friend. We’re all geniuses at SDMB (at least that what we keep telling each other) and I don’t want to work at reading your post to reply. My point remains: The OP stared with a “well established” premise that was hardly well established (save for the true believers (with an emphasis on _believer_) for whom it is 'well established) and I think there is a valid discussion to be had if it was restructured. But it is a terminally flawed premise. And thanks for the witness… ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/37 "2013-01-19T00:15:56Z")
My opinion is that it _can_ be rational to _actually_ believe, not just practice, Christianity. Here’s my thinking: 1. We _all_ believe _something_ that wouldn’t stand up to rational scrutiny; e.g. my\* (parent/brother/uncle/priest/boss/best friend/etc.) is a better person than a careful, rational examination would warrant. 2. This belief gives us comfort and benefit, somehow, in our lives. 3. Therefore, it’s not _irrational_ to avoid examining that belief with _too_ much rational scrutiny, as long as the belief doesn’t create a greater _dis_comfort than the comfort it provides. The same sort of thing applies to religion, whatever one you might believe. As long as the benefits outweigh the costs, it’s rational to believe in the tenets, and not examine them too closely for “truth” content. Once the costs start to outweigh the benefits, that’s when it becomes irrational to not examine your beliefs. That’s how I went from Catholic -\> generic Christian -\> [Apatheist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism). \*My personal example: My best friend from roughly the ages of 19 to 37 (rough guestimate, I can’t remember the circumstances at the beginning, or the date at the end) was really a total asshole if you got right down to it and looked at him rationally. I always thought enough better of him than he deserved to continue to hang out with him, until his assholishness around '99 or '00 blew up in _everyone’s_ faces, and caused me (and everyone else) _far_ more shit than _any_ of us was willing to accept. I haven’t spoken to him since (and I’m not the only one), and if I ever do again, it will only be to tell him to go crawl back under the rock he’s been hiding under since I _last_ spoke to him. I wouldn’t actually be bothered at all to find out he died. It would, instead, relieve me to know that that conversation can never take place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/38 "2013-01-19T00:45:00Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > And I would ask the OP, ever heard of _Blaise Pascal_? Not as rational as he thought he was. [url=]Pascal’s Wager seems to assume that atheism and Catholicism are the only options; it offers no grounds to choose between Catholicism and Protestantism, or even between Christianity and Islam. Furthermore . . . > [@](#): > > This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, “Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it’s all true you’ll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn’t then you’ve lost nothing, right?” When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, “We’re going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts…” – _Hogfather,_ Terry Pratchett ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/39 "2013-01-19T01:40:45Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t have the time, or frankly, to wade into this thread, and I’m sensitive to threadshitting. > > But I think it’s worth noting that no where else IRL do I see so often the words “irrational” (and rational), “illogical” (and logical), and “evidence”, and “proof”, so [apparently] misunderstood, and misapplied. > > And I don’t say this as a theist. A full blown _agnostic_ should be able to see it. > > But both theism, and atheism are subjective belief systems (unlike dead centered unbiased _agnosticism_) and so the [constant] misuse of these words is the apparent merging of _subjectivity_ with _objectivity_ into something we consider to be “truth” or “reality.” > > At least one side of this is comfortable calling it what it is: _Faith._ Atheism is a lack of belief system. Since theists have not been very good at defining the set of gods they believe in (even Christianity has dozens of versions) it is hard specifically believe that a god you have never heard of does not exist. Not believing in that God is a different matter. If you would care to define a god, then we could talk about reasons for believing it does not exist. Faith is just a word to justify believing in absurdities without having to examine them. > [@](#): > > And so while I have the greatest respect for some willing to put lipstick on an intellectual pig and call it Cinderella, words like \*“pretty well established that Christianity is an irrational belief system. It does not use reason to arrive at its conclusions” \*are so deeply incorrect, (and dare I say it, irrational?) that it’s hard to see a debate on the OP’s _merits._ There have been volumes written on this. But by bringing up the need for faith, you pretty much acknowledge it. I don’t have faith in evolution, I don’t have faith in semiconductor physics, and I don’t have faith in Maxwell’s Equations. > [@](#): > > And I would ask the OP, ever heard of _Blaise Pascal_? And bringing up Pascal’s Wager in an SDMB religious discussion is about the biggest fail there is - as we’ve already seen. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628/40 "2013-01-19T01:50:58Z")
I know God and Lord Jesus personally (the one on the throne of all eternity and ruler over spacetime) and I can vouch that even He is not christian nor will ever share His glory with christianity. That said the christian viewpoint is just about equal to the atheist viewpoint, both are illusions allowed by God and His child for a greater purpose, but yes both are equally irrational to me. Peace [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-is-irrational-but-is-being-a-christian/647628.md?page=3)