# Christianity: Why did Jesus leave in the first place? Why not just stay after the resurrection? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441 "2010-09-11T21:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/41 "2010-09-17T16:38:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > Revelation 1:20 > > The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. > > > > And some other references. > > It’s a freakin’ mataphor! Revelation is revelation of what is happening in the heavens, not earth, and is stated as truth. We on the earth will experience a ‘watered down’ version, a shadow of what is in heaven, for instance we won’t have a physical black horse ride across the land, but will suffer the effects, which is bio-fuels, and what will happen to the price of food when a farmer can chose to plant food or fuel crops. Price of food will directly equate to what a barrel of oil costs. Black (horse) = color of oil, wine and oil = bio-fuels ethanol and bio-diesel, scales = the linking of the prices of food and fuel, the price of wheat and barley is the price that food will be (very high), in heaven the angels have a black horse directly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/42 "2010-09-17T16:44:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > It’s a freakin’ mataphor! > > Revelation is revelation of what is happening in the heavens, not earth, and is stated as truth. > > We on the earth will experience a ‘watered down’ version, a shadow of what is in heaven, for instance we won’t have a physical black horse ride across the land, but will suffer the effects, which is bio-fuels, and what will happen to the price of food when a farmer can chose to plant food or fuel crops. Price of food will directly equate to what a barrel of oil costs. > > Black (horse) = color of oil, wine and oil = bio-fuels ethanol and bio-diesel, scales = the linking of the prices of food and fuel, the price of wheat and barley is the price that food will be (very high), in heaven the angels have a black horse directly. Since this isn’t The BBQ Pit, all I’ll say is I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/43 "2010-09-17T18:35:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Sablicious](#): > > > > As can be garnered by the above responses, the answer to this question is whatever you want it to be. In exactly the same way those that espouse such fanciful concepts have no idea and in lieu have myriad wierd and wonderful explanations, so can those who do not necessarily take this stuff to heart come up with their own angles. > > > > In other words, this is no _factual_ answer to something fictitious. > > > [@nachtmusick](#): > > > > I can’t speak for the other person, but at least I tried to be nice. My bald opinion is that it is all BS, but you discourage me from saying so out loud. Just how delicate must I be? > > > > Your last sentence illustrates why athiests tend to keep to themselves, but are still reviled as strident in the media. We can’t explain ourselves without insulting and persecuting theists. > > This is threadshitting. > > There is no evidence that either of you were being “nice.” Clearly, neither of you believe the stories in the Christian gospels. No problem with that. > However, wandering into a thread that is a discussion of those beliefs for the sole point of claiming that you do not believe them is pointless. The thread is intended as a discussion of a belief, using the internal systems of believers. You are welcome to point out the logical inconsistency of any proposed argument, but you are not welcome to simply declare that the basis for the belief is false any more than you are welcome to wander into a Cafe Society thread discussing the motivation of Aragorn or Frodo and declare that it is “just” fiction. > > [/Moderating] I started a post before reading this which became vapor, and after reading this, it’s just as well. In response to what Ted said and these two posters said I was going to say just WHY I think some questions about the Bible (giving a specific example) are meaningful even for skeptics and others MUST lead to a morass of speculation, even for believers, as a practical result. But nevermind. ☹ I don’t feel like starting a Pit thread over this. So, what…? Maybe a fresh Great Debates thread? Or the ATMB option? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/44 "2010-09-18T10:58:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@monavis](#): > > > > yet Matthew also uses the word generation the same as we do today, when he wrote:" there were 14 generations between David and Jesus. > > > > The Bible states, that Jesus said He had to go and make a place for the people who followed Him, and that may be an explaination of why He didn’t stay on earth. > > Generation, to me is our family in the kingdom of God - not earthly generations. Our generation is our siblings, brothers and sisters in Christ. We all all children of one generation, and have a parent generation, and we will parent our next generation. Jesus spoke of His disciples as His sisters, brothers and mother (and the mother was not Mary), He was talking about the generation in the Kingdom, His siblings and parent in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is a family. > > The harvest (second coming) for that generation will happen after the last person of the generation is born. Jesus will transition these children to the Kingdom of God, though they might have a ‘shadow life’ on earth, so unbelievers will see no difference, no second coming on the media. > > This pattern repeats throughout history. Thatr is your intrepetation,but the people that were standing there are not alive and the generation of David to Jesus is used by Matthew to mean the same as we do now. You have the right to believe your translation but it doen’t mean it is the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![bradsanerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@bradsanerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradsanerd)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/45 "2011-10-29T11:38:21Z")
Again I am obviously a little late joining the conversation here, but according to the book of Hebrews Jesus is fulfilling the role of High Priest in Heaven. Which simply means he is applying the sin offering (himself on the cross) to those who believe. Without Jesus actively working in heaven as the High Priest there is never an application of his redemptive work on the cross. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/46 "2011-10-29T11:46:54Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > In the Christian faith, whatever Jesus needs to do in his second coming, why didn’t he just do it right after being resurrected? Why leave and come back thousands (or millions or billions) or years later?.. Because if you assume a hypothetical is true, then any supposition based on that premise can’t be proven wrong. If you assume the Christian religion’s axioms are true, then any claims based on those axiom can’t be challenged. If you assume a Christ exists then the Christ can do anything the Christ wants. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/47 "2011-10-29T15:44:15Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Christ’s own responses to this question was in Matthew 25 & John 14-16. > > In the Matthew parables, the Jewish nation, the Christians & the Gentiles- reached & unreached are given time to prove themselves in what I’ll call “The Gospel Age”- the time between Christ’s ascension & His return. > > In John 14-16, He promises to give His Spirit as our Companion (some translations have Comforter or Advocate) to teach & guide us & shape us into what He intends us to be so we can develop Divine Character. If He stayed on Earth, we wouldn’t learn or grow. We hardly do that now. How much worse would it be? We’d always go running to Him. You have any idea what long-distance charges to Jerusalem, or Galilee for that matter, are? > > Aren’t the previous two posts just nice ways of saying “It’s all BS”? I think **Ted** is very close to on target here. Even supposing Him to be able to command Man’s obedience to God’s Will, which is by no means a certainty from anything in Scripture, the result is a race of stagnating robots. And I do not believe the Old Testament is in any way self-contradictory, except on the very facile level of its alleged verbatim word-for-word dictation-style inspiration (which _most_ Christians do not adhere to, though many of the noisiest do) – I think it’s the record of Man’s growing understanding over time of the Divine Purpose, brought out more fully in the New Testament. In short, God wants humans to follow Him out of love for Him, and because it’s in their own enlightened self-interest to grow into people who are humble, forgiving, compassionate, seeking after justice and mercy, loving as God loves. Whatever the human Jesus, even resurrected and empowered, is able to do, He can only reach one, or at most a few, at a time. Instead, He departs in order to send the _Parakleitos_, the “Comforter” or “Counselor,” identified with the _Ruach Adonai_, the _Pneuma Kyrioi_ – the Lord’s Spirit which had inspired the prophets, able to work within men’s hearts, able to be everywhere at once. This is in fact half the reason He gives for departure, along with going “to prepare a place for you.” When He goes, He will ask the Father, who will at His behest send the _Parakleitos_ to lead us “into all righteousness.” (Dont take that as synonymous with sanctimonious self-righteousness; Jesus explicitly denounces the latter – by it I think He means the mindset and heart He has instructed us to have in the Gospel discourses, and which the Holy Spirit is equipped to inculcate in willing hearts. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/48 "2011-10-29T15:54:00Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > We’ve had 2000 years (since Jesus) and the world is still only half Christian. [1/3, actually](http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/49 "2011-10-29T16:06:10Z")
> [@bradsanerd](#): > > Again I am obviously a little late joining the conversation here, but according to the book of Hebrews Jesus is fulfilling the role of High Priest in Heaven. Which simply means he is applying the sin offering (himself on the cross) to those who believe. Without Jesus actively working in heaven as the High Priest there is never an application of his redemptive work on the cross. Originally, Jesus planned on getting all this straightened out and having the Last Judgment before the current generation passed away (Matthew 24:34). But you would not believe the paperwork involved. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/50 "2011-10-30T02:37:26Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Because if you assume a hypothetical is true, then any supposition based on that premise can’t be proven wrong. . . . Likewise, the atheist could say that Jesus didn’t come back, because Jesus hasn’t come back. The story is written to excuse the facts, not to provide a coherent model of reality. BUT…the OP asked us not to go there, so…let’s not… The most reasonable version I’ve heard is simply that the time was given to mankind for the word to be spread, so that more people might come to God via Christ. My objection to this is that this also leads to a great many more people going to Hell. It is a very poor theological system that can only save one soul at the price of condemning ten. Another argument is that we’re being made to wait as punishment, the same way that the Children of Israel were made to wander in the desert, rather than being led directly to the Promised Land. We don’t deserve to see the Messiah’s arrival in the fullness of his glory. A variant of this is that there are preconditions that haven’t been met yet. The re-building of a Temple in Jerusalem is one that is often cited. This seems a little awkward, as, if interpreted too literally, it puts it in man’s power to hasten or defer the Messiah’s arrival. And, of course, another variant of this is the one that Harold Camping was relying (too heavily!) on: that there is a fixed date for the Messiah’s arrival, firmly decreed in Scripture, and the cycle of Jubilees and so on give this date for those who have the wisdom to understand. (And the big problem with that is that people have been using divine numerology to determine this date – which is always “Real Soon Now!” – for nearly two thousand years! A system of prediction that has been wrong 99% of the time is not one I want to rely upon today!) Trinopus (does feel vaguely sorry for poor old Harold Camping…) ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/51 "2011-10-30T11:31:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And, of course, another variant of this is the one that Harold Camping was relying (too heavily!) on: that there is a fixed date for the Messiah’s arrival, firmly decreed in Scripture, and the cycle of Jubilees and so on give this date for those who have the wisdom to understand. > > (And the big problem with that is that people have been using divine numerology to determine this date – which is always “Real Soon Now!” – for nearly two thousand years! A system of prediction that has been wrong 99% of the time is not one I want to rely upon today!) > > Trinopus (does feel vaguely sorry for poor old Harold Camping…) Well…there is a 400 meter asteroid cruising by us on November 8th. It will pass within the orbit of the moon. Or so our best minds have calculated. If such a thing were to actually strike us (at tens of thousands of miles per hour) the effect would kill most of a continent, and throw the rest of the world into…a new economy. But; hooray!..it will miss us by justthismuch. The international space agencies are treating it as a chance to study an asteroid close-up without spending money on firing-off a probe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/52 "2011-10-30T12:09:42Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > In the Christian faith, whatever Jesus needs to do in his second coming, why didn’t he just do it right after being resurrected? Why leave and come back thousands (or millions or billions) or years later? He emerged from his tomb, saw his shadow and so went back in for a few millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/53 "2011-10-30T21:30:24Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Well…there is a 400 meter asteroid cruising by us on November 8th. It will pass within the orbit of the moon. Or so our best minds have calculated. . . . But this is knowledge arrived at by a posteriori epistemology, not by a priori reasoning… We’ve built radars that can see asteroids, and calibrated them, and tested them, and used them to land spacecraft on the moon, etc. Religious knowledge usually depends upon faith, since we have no means of testing and calibrating issues such as trinitarianism, the resurrection, whether hell is a real place with physical flames or a metaphorical spiritual state, etc… We need a science of experimental theology! Also…will we ordinary blokes out here be able to watch the asteroid pass by? I presume naked-eye observation won’t let me see a thing, but will NASA be providing a real-time telescopic internet feed? Whether or not the dang thing hits us, I wanna watch it! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/54 "2011-11-01T02:04:48Z")
[quote=“smiling\_bandit, post:5, topic:553441”] OK, **Zanthor** , I won’t comment …QUOTE] \*\* Zanthor??? \*\*I thought it was Dr. Bronner! hh ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/55 "2011-11-03T03:52:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Likewise, the atheist could say that Jesus didn’t come back, because Jesus hasn’t come back. And that would be correct. Same way that no 3 yellow butterflies are not flying around your head controlling what you do… because no 3 yellow _x_x_x_x_x_ actually do that. Anyone can make any unsubstantiated claim. The way as our society has decided to evaluate such claims is only by using reason and logic and dismiss any imaginary statement someone can make. That’s why no volcano gods exist. That’s why no religious gods of any kind exist either. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/56 "2011-11-03T04:04:48Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > . . . Same way that no 3 yellow butterflies are not flying around your head controlling what you do… because no 3 yellow _x_x_x_x_x_ actually do that. . . . Ha! My mighty mental defenses are so vastly powerful, it takes seven yellow butterflies to control what I do! > [@](#): > > . . . That’s why no volcano gods exist. . . . Hey, buddy, my aunt is descended from the volcano goddess! 😉 Trinopus (…and my uncle was very tired…) ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441/57 "2011-11-03T04:08:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hey, buddy, … Hey buddy… I can’t go back and read your previous posts to determine if you are a “believer” or not… but I’ll take it that you agree that unsubstantiated claims are to be ignored 🙂 12 yellow butterflies! weeeeeeee… 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christianity-why-did-jesus-leave-in-the-first-place-why-not-just-stay-after-the-resurrection/553441.md?page=2)