"Christianophobia" - is there a double standard in the way Christianity is treated?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

There’s another factor that we need to consider.

The article @Velocity linked to earlier dealt, in part, with a situation where Muslim parents were trying to ban gay-friendly books at a public school. A bunch of white hippies counterdemonstrated across the street and sang folk songs. A leftist Muslim activist chastised them.

And on the one hand, okay, fuck off, leftist Muslim activist, people are allowed to protest what they want, and protesting homophobia in general is a good idea.

But on the other hand, there’s something weird going on with that protest.

Imagine a group that forms to protest anti-women sexism in the workplace, and the group’s leaders are all men.

Imagine a group that forms to advocate for the rights of Spanish-speaking immigrants, and not a single member of the group is a Spanish-speaking immigrant.

Imagine a group that advocates for the rights of children, and everyone in it is an adult.

For me, the first two groups are problematic, and the third one is fine. The first two groups are a problem because why aren’t they led by the groups whose rights they’re advocating for? The third one is fine because children can’t be expected to stand up meaningfully for their own rights.

Bringing it back to the white hippies: why aren’t they supporting the gay Muslims who are leading the struggle for queer rights? Here’s one group they could be supporting.

The MASGD

Any time someone sees an injustice and decides that, although they’re unaffected by it, they’re the ones best positioned to lead the struggle, it’s a little hinky. There are always adults who are affected by the injustice who are struggling to correct it, and it makes the most sense to me for allies to support those efforts rather than taking the reins of leadership.

The exception is with children. And when people treat the adults like they would treat children, it raises eyebrows.

[Babale]

@Velocity

So, the thread (like similar threads) is largely boiling down to two views:

1. Christianity is not facing a double standard.

And/or,

2. Christianity is facing a double standard, but that’s a good thing.

No, that’s not happening.

And it’s a good thing that it is happening, actually.

And anyways, they apologized.

And besides, they’re just posters on a message board, why are you talking about this when there’s a war in Iran?

[Sylvanz]

Just because I’m not part of the persecuted whatever group I cannot protest on their behalf? Why?

[Babale]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Bringing it back to the white hippies: why aren’t they supporting the gay Muslims who are leading the struggle for queer rights?

What on Earth makes you think that they aren’t?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Sylvanz

Just because I’m not part of the persecuted whatever group I cannot protest on their behalf? Why?

Edit: I was unnecessarily sarcastic here, sorry. I want to emphasize that I’m not saying that, but saying something significantly different:

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

There are always adults who are affected by the injustice who are struggling to correct it, and it makes the most sense to me for allies to support those efforts rather than taking the reins of leadership.

[Sylvanz]

What if there is no one of the group willing/able to protest? Maybe they’re afraid maybe they don’t like confrontaition. If the group as a whole doesn’t want the protest then they would be able to voice that, but does one leftest guy speak for the group?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Sylvanz

What if there is no one of the group willing/able to protest?

That’s an interesting hypothetical–but in my post, I linked to a group that takes on this issue. Contact that group first!

If, hypothetically, there’s literally nobody within the oppressed group willing to take the reins of leadership, there may be cases where a white savior is warranted. But that’s not what happened in this incident.

[Gyrate]

@Velocity

What was the Christian equivalent of the Charlie Hebdo shooting, Samuel Paty beheading, Jyllands-Posten retaliation attack on European embassies causing many deaths, Innocence of Muslims video protest attack that led to many deaths, Lars Vilks cartoon attacks, anti-Quran-burning protest attacks that killed many, Terry Jones Quran burning that led to deaths, Theo van Gogh stabbing?

So one Muslim stabbing someone in the Netherlands damns the entirety of Islam, but an angry mob supported by the church in Georgia (the country) violently attacking a Pride march is in no way representative of Christianity?

The counter-protesters erected the cross in front of the parliament, aiming to signify that the “laws in this country will be written in accordance with Christian morals”.

Note that these attacks happen regularly there, often with clergy participating in the attacks. LITERAL PRIESTS ARE STONING PEOPLE.

There’s the attacks on Muslims in the Central African Republic and the aforementioned death penalty in Uganda. Do those not tarnish Christianity?

And as already mentioned, there is the treatment of LGBTQ+ people in the US, including conversion therapy, domestic abuse, denial of healthcare and jobs and housing, the $220m spent during the last election alone on anti-trans propaganda. It isn’t Muslims promoting that agenda in America (even if some of them agree with it). Doesn’t that count too? Or has it blended so much into the background noise that it doesn’t even bear mention anymore?

@Velocity

Not persecute, but at least, hold to the same standard. If we have no hesitation in calling out Christianity for something, we should have no hesitation about doing so for any other religion too.

And yet here you are, arguing that we shouldn’t call out Christianity for the same things you’re calling out other religions for. Don’t you think we should hold them to the same standard?

@Velocity

Can there be any doubt that burning a Quran in London or Paris would be likelier to lead to violence than burning a Bible?

Now place the event in Texas.

@Sylvanz

Christianity has had it’s time of violence.

It really hasn’t. It’s just that it’s more likely to get treated as isolated incidents or ascribed to other causes.

@Babale

No, that’s not happening.

And it’s a good thing that it is happening, actually.

Oh, we’ve definitely identified a double standard that is happening. And that some people think it is good.

[Babale]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

That’s an interesting hypothetical–but in my post, I linked to a group that takes on this issue. Contact that group first!

So let me get this straight. There is a community where a group of people who live in that community got pro LGBT books banned, and you think that it would be more appropriate contact a random unrelated group to advocate against this ban rather than just have local pro LGBT people advocate against it? And the only reason you think that some outside group to come in and advocate on their behalf is that the homophobes in question happened to be muslim? How does that make any sense? If Muslim people who live in a community (or any other people who live in that community) behave in a homophobic way, it should be fine for the people of that community to call them out themselves. They don’t need to find some token representative who checks all the right boxes in order to be allowed to criticize the homophobes, even if those homophobes belong to a minority group.

ETA: originally posted this with voice keyboard and omg did it have some weird typos…

[Babale]

@Gyrate

Note that these attacks happen regularly there, often with clergy participating in the attacks. LITERAL PRIESTS ARE STONING PEOPLE.

They sound like backwards, fundamentalist, hateful barbarians. Do you think anyone is going to defend that behavior or refuse to condemn it in such terms out of fear of offending Christians?

[Gyrate]

@Babale

They sound like backwards, fundamentalist, hateful barbarians.

They are. Why aren’t they considered representative of Christianity the way that the murderer of Theo van Gogh is seen to be of Muslims? They are literally ordained members of a major Christian sect.

Do you think anyone is going to defend that behavior or refuse to condemn it in such terms out of fear of offending Christians?

In Georgia? A lot, I would guess. And a lot in other countries filled with “backwards, hateful barbarians”, including parts of the US.

Plenty of Christians openly defend and even encourage such attacks on gays, not out of fear of reprisal but because they support the attacks. I can even find Christian clergy defending the Pulse nightclub massacre, claiming that the murderer (who was Muslim) “didn’t kill enough of them”. Again - why are these folk not the avatars for Christianity?

And the vast majority of Muslims condemn violence committed by Muslim extremists. Yet that doesn’t seem to mitigate the claims that the extremists are more representative of Islam than the moderate majority.

So yes, there’s definitely a double standard at work here.

[puzzlegal]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Bringing it back to the white hippies: why aren’t they supporting the gay Muslims who are leading the struggle for queer rights? Here’s one group they could be supporting.

I’m totally confused. Are the children whose books are being banned all Muslims? I thought this was a public school. Are the none of the white hippies parents of the kids? Do the potentially gay kids deserve some support even if their parents aren’t standing up for them?

Exactly what are these white hippies doing wrong?

[Babale]

@Gyrate

They are. Why aren’t they considered representative of Christianity the way that the murderer of Theo van Gogh is seen to be of Muslims?

I think they are both equally representative of the ugliest parts of their respective religions, and equally unrepresentative of the majority of practitioners of both religions. Now what?

@Gyrate

In Georgia? A lot, I would guess. And a lot in other countries filled with “backwards, hateful barbarians”, including parts of the US.

I meant anyone on this message board. Yes, the same way that there are backwards, hateful barbarians who commit such acts, there are also backwards, hateful barbarians who defend them.

I am more interested in people who aren’t backwards hateful barbarians who nevertheless refuse to condemn either incident, or whose reaction to either incident is whataboutism pointing to the other.

@Gyrate

Again - why are these folk not the avatars for Christianity?

Aren’t they? It seems like they come up any time Christianity is discussed on this site. Which is fine, to be clear, they’re a big problem in our society and should be called out and condemned.

@Gyrate

And the vast majority of Muslims condemn violence committed by Muslim extremists. Yet that doesn’t seem to mitigate the claims that the extremists are more representative of Islam than the moderate majority.

Can you quote whoever made the claim that extremists are more representative of Muslims as a whole than the moderate majority? I must have missed it, because I read through the thread and don’t recall encountering such a ludicrous claim.

[puzzlegal]

Or to make it a Christian example, if some Catholic parents are trying to ban sex ed in my kid’s school, do i need to find a Catholic to counter-protest, or would you allow me to protest, myself, for my local public school?

[Babale]

@puzzlegal

if some Catholic parents are trying to ban sex ed in my kid’s school, do i need to find a Catholic to counter-protest, or would you allow me to protest, myself, for my local public school?

It sounds like Catholics are white and privileged so you’re allowed to protest against them, but Muslims are not so you have to find a token Muslim to protest for you. But I’m sure that’s not true and look forward to an internally consistent explanation explaining the difference. I’m sure that’s forthcoming!

[Spice_Weasel]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Any time someone sees an injustice and decides that, although they’re unaffected by it, they’re the ones best positioned to lead the struggle, it’s a little hinky.

It doesn’t sound like they were leading the struggle, just coming out in support. Minority groups need majority groups because majority groups are taken more seriously by the majority. Social change doesn’t happen without allies doing ally-specific work. Women would never have gotten the vote if men hadn’t taken it upon themselves to talk other men into giving women the vote. It was important for men to have a visible presence in that fight. Men understand men better than women do. It doesn’t erase the hard effort and good work of the minority group, but there’s a weird tendency in progressive circles to try to erase the efforts of allies, and I feel like we are really shooting ourselves in the foot when we do this.

This whole colonization talk, which has cropped up everywhere (including therapist’s offices, where Jewish victims of the Oct 7 terrorist attack are forced to acknowledge they are colonizers in order to get therapy), seems like ineffective and potentially self-destructive messaging.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Okay–rather than relying on the editorial that @Velocity posted earlier, here’s an actual news story about the incident, as excerpted in the editorial:

Birmingham school row: ‘This is made out to be just Muslims v gays. It’s not’

It’s worth reading the whole article. I wish I’d read it before posting, instead of just reading the editorial. Essentially, there’s a British school that’s 90% Muslim, and some blowhard dude who doesn’t have kids at the school has whipped up a homophobic campaign as an attention-getting ploy. And a queer Muslim activist who’s been deeply involved in efforts to resist his nonsense is exasperated at the white hippies singing songs outside, saying they’re not actually much help.

Here’s a longer excerpt, but again, it’s worth reading the whole thing.

It’s a nuance that Razzaq – who represents Supporting Education of Equality and Diversity in Schools (Seeds), a 1,000-member network that has been set up by teachers as a result of the Birmingham school protests – says is consistently missing from the debate. She grew up in the same area as Afsar and finds it “deeply upsetting” to be at the intersection of two purportedly conflicting communities.

“But the answers have to come from within our community,” she says. “It has to be done sensitively, and we have to have those conversations as Muslims, British Pakistanis, as people from Birmingham. It can’t be done through the white saviours who are holding counter-protests at the school. That’s not helping, it reeks of a colonial mindset to me. Did they not think how that looks?”

[Gyrate]

@Babale

I think they are both equally representative of the ugliest parts of their respective religions, and equally unrepresentative of the majority of practitioners of both religions. Now what?

Good for you. Unfortunately there appear to be others in this thread who have a different reaction.

@Babale

I am more interested in people who aren’t backwards hateful barbarians who nevertheless refuse to condemn either incident, or whose reaction to either incident is whataboutism pointing to the other.

Can you quote whoever is refusing to condemn either incident or whose reaction to either incident is whataboutism pointing to the other? I must have missed it, because I read through the thread and don’t recall encountering such a ludicrous claim.

Unless by “whataboutism” you mean “holding Christians and Muslims to the same standard”, which I thought we’d agreed was a good thing?

@Babale

Can you quote whoever made the claim that extremists are more representative of Muslims as a whole than the moderate majority? I must have missed it, because I read through the thread and don’t recall encountering such a ludicrous claim.

Other than the multiple references to how much more dangerous it is to offend any Muslims for fear of violence, as exemplified by, say,

@Velocity

the Charlie Hebdo shooting, Samuel Paty beheading, Jyllands-Posten retaliation attack on European embassies causing many deaths, Innocence of Muslims video protest attack that led to many deaths, Lars Vilks cartoon attacks, anti-Quran-burning protest attacks that killed many, Terry Jones Quran burning that led to deaths, Theo van Gogh stabbing

than to offend Christians?

[Aspenglow]

Moderating:

@Babale

It sounds like Catholics are white and privileged so you’re allowed to protest against them, but Muslims are not so you have to find a token Muslim to protest for you. But I’m sure that’s not true and look forward to an internally consistent explanation explaining the difference. I’m sure that’s forthcoming!

Let’s dial back the snark. Your comments verge on attacking the poster. You can make your points without employing this tactic.

Introducing snark into the discussion invariably leads to inflamed tempers and Pit-like exchanges. One of our most important rules is to keep discussion civil and respectful. Keep this in mind when carrying on your discussion here.

[Babale]

@Gyrate

Other than the multiple references to how much more dangerous it is to offend any Muslims for fear of violence, as exemplified by, say

So when you said that people were saying these behaviors are representative of Muslims as a whole, is what you actually meant was that people said that the risk posed by insulting Islam is disproportionately higher than the risk posed by insulting Christianity?

Because those two statements aren’t identical or even particularly similar, unless I am misinterpreting something.