# Christians afraid of Christmas being co-opted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167 "2004-12-16T16:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/61 "2004-12-17T12:15:38Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > There is nothing in Scriptures about Santa Claus, eggnog, and trees. Actually this isn’t true. Granted there is nothing that I know of about Santa or Eggnog, there is something in the bible about trees: Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-4 > [@](#): > > 10:3 > For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. > > 10:4 > They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. IIRC this is regarding an old pagan tradition that eventually morphed into the Christian Christmas tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/62 "2004-12-17T12:22:28Z")
Here’s some more info: [Taken From Religious Tolerance.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm) > [@](#): > > In the past, there have been many objections to Christmas trees: > > The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them: > > Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (KJV). > > The English Puritans condemned a number of customs associated with Christmas, such as the use of the Yule log, holly, mistletoe, etc. Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” 2,4 > In America, the Pilgrim’s second governor, William Bradford, a Puritan, tried hard to stamp out all “pagan mockery” at Christmas time. 4 Christmas trees were not used by Puritans in colonial times. However, if they were, they would certainly have been forbidden. > Pastor Henry Schwan of Cleveland OH appears to have been the person responsible for decorating the first Christmas tree in an American church. His parishioners condemned the idea as a Pagan practice; some even threatened the pastor with harm. But objections soon dissipated. 2 > > Even today, the complaints continue: > > At Christmas 2000, the city manager of Eugene OR ordered that Christmas trees could not be erected on city properties because he considered them Christian religious symbols. He felt that their presence would violate the principle of church and state. 1 > Some Fundamentalist Christian groups oppose Christmas trees and even the celebration of Christmas for their members. This includes the Jehovah’s Witnesses and, until recently, the Worldwide Church of God. Part of the opposition is because the custom of decorated trees originated in Paganism. They also oppose trees because of a literal interpretation of the quotation from Jeremiah. Plus some origins: > [@](#): > > Origins of the Christmas Tree: > Pagan traditions: Many Pagan cultures used to cut down evergreen trees in December, moved them into the home or temple and decorated them. 7 Modern-day Pagans still do. This was to recognize the winter solstice – the time of the year that had the shortest daylight hours, and longest night of the year. This occurs annually sometime between DEC-20 to 23. They noticed that the days were gradually getting shorter; many feared that the sun would eventually disappear forever, and everyone would freeze. But, even though deciduous trees, bushes, and crops died or hibernated for the winter, the evergreen trees remained green. They seemed to have magical powers that enabled them to withstand the rigors of winter. Not having evergreen trees, the ancient Egyptians considered the palm tree to symbolize resurrection. They decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice. 3 > “The first decorating of an evergreen tree began with the heathen Greeks and their worship of their god Adonia, who allegedly was brought back to life by the serpent Aessulapius after having been slain.” 5 > The ancient Pagan Romans decorated their “trees with bits of metal and replicas of their god, Bacchus [a fertility god]. They also placed 12 candles on the tree in honor of their sun god” 2 Their mid-winter festival of Saturnalia started on DEC-17 and often lasted until a few days after the Solstice. > In Northern Europe, the ancient Druids tied fruit and attached candles to evergreen tree branches, in honor of their god Woden. Trees were viewed as symbolizing eternal life. This is the deity after which Wednesday was named. The trees joined holly, mistletoe, the wassail bowl and the Yule log as symbols of the season. All predated Christianity. 5 > > Christmas traditions: One Christmas tradition was that St. Boniface (675? - 755; a.k.a. Winfred) cut down a deciduous tree in the presence of some newly-baptized Christians. The tree was an oak – once sacred to the former Pagans. It miraculously split into four pieces, revealing an evergreen tree growing from the center of the oak stump. This symbolized the death of Paganism and the establishment of Christianity. 3 > Another is that Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was so impressed by a forest scene that he cut down a small fir tree, took it home, and decorated it with lighted candles. This is probably a myth, because the earliest documented record of a Christmas tree in Germany is dated to almost 60 years after his death. [And some surpising info on Santa Claus.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/63 "2004-12-17T12:27:23Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Listening to AM radio, I have heard a number of Christians complaining that Christmas is being co-opted into a secular holiday. Isn’t this stupid. There is nothing in Scriptures about Santa Claus, eggnog, and trees. Didn’t Christians co-opt a pagan holiday to create Christmas? Early Christians didn’t even celebrate Christmas. Why do some Christians choose to believe these pagan rituals are part of our Christian traditions? The way I see it this defines how it is co-opted, Santa & trees, it is now further coopted by the ‘Christmas buying season’ . And further still by the “holiday season”. Also just because early Christinas didn’t honor the birth of Christ does not make it wrong, or ‘un-Christain’ to do so. ---
**Author:** ![JMS\_CCT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbe5ce/32.png) [@JMS\_CCT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JMS_CCT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/64 "2004-12-17T13:36:24Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Listening to AM radio, I have heard a number of Christians complaining that Christmas is being co-opted into a secular holiday. Isn’t this stupid. There is nothing in Scriptures about Santa Claus, eggnog, and trees. Didn’t Christians co-opt a pagan holiday to create Christmas? Early Christians didn’t even celebrate Christmas. Why do some Christians choose to believe these pagan rituals are part of our Christian traditions? According to Christian tradition, Christmas is said to be the celebration of our Lord’s birthday, which was officially established by the Roman Catholic Church as December 25th. This claim is not supported by Scripture. Here’s why. The Christmas story begins in Luke chapter 1 with a man named Zacharias, a Levite priest of the “course of Abia.”(verse 5) He and his wife, Elisabeth, had no child (she was barren), both were very old **"…well stricken in years”** (verse 7). While Zacharias was serving his course in the temple, the angel Gabriel appears to him (verse 11), and tells him he and his wife are going to have a child, a son, who’s name shall be John. (verse 13). Zacharias, knowing how old they both are, disbelieves, and the angel strikes him dumb. (verse 20). He finishes his course (two weeks), goes home to his wife, and she conceives.\* . In the sixth month of Elisabeth’s pregnancy, the angel Gabriel is sent to her cousin, Mary (verses 26,27). He tells her that she is going to divinely conceive in her womb, **“and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS….And he shall reign over the house of Jacob (Israel), for ever and ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end”** (verses 31,33, 35)\*\*. Mary conceives in Elisabeth’s sixth month of pregnancy (verse 36), which would make that January. If she bears Jesus nine months later, that would be October. In other words, going by the Biblical record, there is no way the Lord’s birthdate could have been December 25th. Although by this record we can ascertain the month he was born, there is nothing there that could give us a specific day. Could it be possible that God withheld this information for a reason? That maybe he didn’t want us (Christians) celebrating his Son’s birthday? How was this day really established? Sometime during the forth century, AD, Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, thus supplanting centuries of pagan religious practices. This, however, did not stop the Romans from practicing their paganism, so the Roman church adapted. The most important pagan celebration of the year was the winter solstice, the climax of which was (wouldn’t you know it!) December 25th. This celebration (Saternalia) can be traced all the way back to the Babylonian empire and the year end nature ritual of the death of the old (the burning of the “Yule” log on the 24th), and the birth of the new (the miraculous appearing of the green tree in its place, which symbolized the Babyonian God, Nimrod.) The Roman church simply put Jesus in Nimrod’s place, claimed his birthday as the 25th, and, in effect, “Christianized” this pagan celebration. Protestants, for the most part, retained the practice in their religion. **"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."** (Eccl 7:29) (KJV) - The course of Abia (See 1 Chron. 24:10), being the eigth course, would have occured the last two weeks in July. That means Elisabeth would have conceived John in late July, early August. \*\* Compare Isaiah 9:6,7 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/65 "2004-12-17T15:05:22Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > This would be the coolest holiday display ever. Visit Calcutta in October. It’s the Bengali equivalent of Christmas – there are such displays everywhere, some of them several stories tall. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/66 "2004-12-17T15:41:22Z")
“They fasten it (tree) with nails and hammer that it move not.” Well, I would **hope** it wouldn’t try to move on its own! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/67 "2004-12-17T17:10:12Z")
**Furt** : > [@](#): > > So then you have no problem with signs saying “Merry Christmas,” or carols referencing the birth of Christ? They are, after all, “only words.” Well, _I_ don’t have a problem with any of it because I’m a Christian, but no, they are not only words, they convey ideas, ideas that the government has no business declaring true. I was responding to **Wrath** ’s point that since the government designates Dec 25 as a holiday and **labels** it “Christmas” then official government recognition of Jesus’ divinity is a done deal. (I trust you were only referring to government venues in your post.) **Wrath** , I agree that most of the examples on your list amount to going too far (assuming the **DtC** is wrong about them being false or exagerrated), but even so their impact on the children’s overall enjoyment of the season has got to be pretty minimal. A list of incidents of people being allowed to observe Christmas would fill up the entire internet. Now I’ve got it in for political correctness just as much as for conservatism–in fact I consider PC to be a form of conservatism–but look who’s playing the vicitm even as they consolidate their grip on power in their bid to make Christianity the state religion. The crux of the issue is the word “Christmas” itself. Should we re-define the word to exclude any association with Jesus Christ so that non-Christians can be wished a merry Christmas as well? Or should we embrace “Holiday” (or maybe bring back “Yuletide”) with “Christ Mass” meaning just the church service which is only one narrow, optional aspect of the season (and the least merry one at that). At any rate, a school is not a church. Excellent posts by **Acsenray** and **Zoe**. Damn straight secularism means being neutral on religion. ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/68 "2004-12-17T17:36:04Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > Why even go so far as to “correct” them? I’m a Christian, but when somebody wished me “Happy Hannakuh” the other day, I simply returned his good wishes and went on my way. Not \*every \* moment has to be a teachable one. How is it that a Christian is wished “Happy Hanukkah”? Was it said jokingly? Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/69 "2004-12-17T17:45:23Z")
> [@kezami](#): > > How is it that a Christian is wished “Happy Hanukkah”? Was it said jokingly? > > Very strange. I tell the story in [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=290876) , but I’ll summarize. The young fellow who wished me a Happy Hanukkah didn’t know I’m a Christian. He was standing outside a bookstore with a friend, (presumably) wishing everyone a Happy Hanakkuh. I thought it was nice, so I thanked him and wished him a Happy Hannukkah back. I live in an area with a large Jewish population, so they were probably safe in thinking they’d get a large response rate by wishing everyone a Happy Hanukkah. What makes me sad is that they assumed, probably correctly, that only a fellow Jew would return their greeting. Heck, I’m a nice guy, I appreciate anyone’s good wishes, and I do hope he had a Happy Hannukah. So why not return his greeting? So, nothing strange about it; just something nice. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/70 "2004-12-17T18:00:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > This is what I’m talking about when I say that it creates an implicit imposition of a specific worldview. When you permit some holiday observances, you are de facto embracing them as the norm and making all others different. The crux of the matter is the idea that to a religious person, _“Secular” does not equal “neutral.”_ To _not_ mention the presence and effect of the Divine will on some relevant topic is to implicitly deny it. To celebrate a December 25th holiday all while scrupulously avoiding what it has been understood to represent for two millenia is not a “neutral” act; it is the deliberate excision of a specific worldview. Frankly, I find this view astonishing. Under this rubric, the First Amendment is, in effect, impossible. The government doesn’t take sides on matters of religious belief and people acting in their private capacity are allowed to believe and say what they want. Nothing could be more simple. Santa Claus is not a religious belief, so it’s no problem. Jesus is a religious belief; put him on private property. If that offends you, then, really, my only conclusion is that you have no respect for the notion that I may choose to believe what I wish and live my life as I wish without interference from my neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/71 "2004-12-17T19:06:56Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > The young fellow who wished me a Happy Hanukkah didn’t know I’m a Christian. He was standing outside a bookstore with a friend, (presumably) wishing everyone a Happy Hanakkuh. You sure he wasn’t just clearing his throat? ;j ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/72 "2004-12-17T19:18:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Visit Calcutta in October. It’s the Bengali equivalent of Christmas – there are such displays everywhere, some of them several stories tall. Cool. Someone tell John Ashcroft never to visit - he’d need a several stories tall drape. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167/73 "2004-12-18T06:45:50Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Visit Calcutta in October. It’s the Bengali equivalent of Christmas – there are such displays everywhere, some of them several stories tall. I would love nothing more that to visit India. If I ever do have the means to make it over there, I’ll make sure it’s in October :). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-afraid-of-christmas-being-co-opted/280167.md?page=3)