# Christians: Aren't animals sinners?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 12, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191 "2010-05-12T17:08:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/21 "2010-05-12T17:43:16Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> I realize this is a joke, but even taking the Noah story at face value, there is no indication that the animals were destroyed because they were sinful any more than my house must be sinful because God let it burn down.
Your house doesn’t feel pain. The trees that make it much of it are already dead, and the bricks & metal were never alive in the first place.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/22 "2010-05-12T17:44:00Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> You’re missing the important point that humans were made in the image of God, with the ability to choose between right and wrong. Even the most intelligent animals are incapable of that. A dog can choose to disobey you, but does not have a conscience and does not experience shame for being disobedient.
Perhaps I am missing the point. But if I am, it’s because I’m missing the “why” behind it all. As in why do we have the ability to sin and not animals? Is there a proper Christian response to this?
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/23 "2010-05-12T17:44:52Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> Great question. Honestly, I have no idea. But I don’t think it’s fair (and, yes, I’m one to bitch about fairness) to say that God created both people and animals with inherent nature/desires and that this intuitive part of man led us to sin but that animals are incapable of sinning. If people are created with innate cravings (and I’ve never met a theist who didn’t believe this) then we don’t have free will any more than an insect does. I think.
Insects don’t have free will in the way that you think of it. They are literally guided purely by instinct. Above them there are animals who are 99.9% guided by instinct. Above them are ones who are 99.8% of instinct. Any line you draw deciding at what point something gains free will is arbitrary. Our consciousnesses are the user interfaces of our computerized brains.
And if you’re going to talk about fairness, I think it’s far more unfair that God created us with built-in natures that led us to displease him to begin with. But ah well.
The “proper Christian answer” you wanted:
Animals, according to typical Christian belief, are incapable of sinning in the same way that your infant child is. They’re ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil and are thus innocent. Remember that Adam and Eve only became sinners once they gained that knowledge. So ignorance really is bliss and animals have it in spades.
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/24 "2010-05-12T17:45:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Of course all animals are sinful. Otherwise, He wouldn’t have killed off most of them in the Flood.
> Which reminds me-how did he kill off the fish? Were fish spared because they were without sin?
Would putting salt water fish into a fresh water enviornment (and vice versa) kill most of them?
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/25 "2010-05-12T17:49:20Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Insects don’t have free will in the way that you think of it. They are literally guided purely by instinct. Above them there are animals who are 99.9% guided by instinct. Above them are ones who are 99.8% of instinct. **Any line you draw deciding at what point something gains free will is arbitrary.** Our consciousnesses are the user interfaces of our computerized brains.
(Bolding mine.) Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Problem is, it’s an arbitrary line religion draws to give animals a pass and condemn us.
> [@](#):
>
> And if you’re going to talk about fairness, I think it’s far more unfair that God created us with built-in natures that led us to displease him to begin with. But ah well.
My point exactly.
> [@](#):
>
> The “proper Christian answer” you wanted:
> Animals, according to typical Christian belief, are incapable of sinning in the same way that your infant child is.
But Christians have no problem calling my infant child a sinner nonetheless. Which is my whole beef with original sin. We’re ‘evil’ before we can spell the word, and then when we learn to spell it it only confirms we had ‘evil’ in us the whole time.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/26 "2010-05-12T17:53:38Z")
**Christians** , is there a specific verse in Scripture teaching animals don’t have souls? What’s the history of this doctrine? I’ve got Catholic friends who believe their deceased pets are in heaven, so is there a difference between Catholics and Protestant on this issue?
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/27 "2010-05-12T17:55:08Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> But Christians have no problem calling my infant child a sinner nonetheless. Which is my whole beef with original sin. We’re ‘evil’ before we can spell the word, and then when we learn to spell it it only confirms we had ‘evil’ in us the whole time.
But Dost, that means that sin has absolutely nothing to do with will. Question answered.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/28 "2010-05-12T17:56:15Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> But Dost, that means that sin has absolutely nothing to do with will. Question answered.
Can we switch brains? You make things so easy.🙂
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/29 "2010-05-12T18:01:55Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> Can we switch brains? You make things so easy.🙂
Just the way God made me.
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### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/30 "2010-05-12T18:04:18Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> But Christians have no problem calling my infant child a sinner nonetheless.
Who? Certain sects believe that the child has Original Sin upon it which is different than the child actively being a “sinner”. Other sects reject Original Sin and state that the child is sinless until he or she reaches an “age of reason” and can start making conscious choices to do right or wrong with a moral understanding.
In neither event is the sect in question stating that the infant is a sinner.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/31 "2010-05-12T18:08:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> In neither event is the sect in question stating that the infant is a sinner.
I was raised [Independent Baptist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist) and I can assure you that virtually all of them, if not actually all of them, believe this. Also, most Calvinists I’ve met hold to this. Fits nicely with the total depravity part.
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### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/32 "2010-05-12T18:08:26Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> **Christians** , is there a specific verse in Scripture teaching animals don’t have souls? What’s the history of this doctrine? I’ve got Catholic friends who believe their deceased pets are in heaven, so is there a difference between Catholics and Protestant on this issue?
I’m fairly certain St. Thomas Aquinas said animals don’t have eternal souls but I’m not near a copy of his writings to check. There’s no scripture that would lead one to believe they DO have souls which is more relevant in my mind that absence of scripture explicitly stating that they don’t.
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### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/33 "2010-05-12T18:10:12Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> I was raised [Independent Baptist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist) and I can assure you that virtually all of them, if not actually all of them, believe this.
Well, ask _them_ about the animals then, I guess 🙂
I was raised Catholic. Infants being sinners wasn’t something we dabbled in.
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### Author:  [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/34 "2010-05-12T18:12:11Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> I was raised Catholic. Infants being sinners wasn’t something we dabbled in.
Huh… that changes my concept of Catholicism.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/35 "2010-05-12T18:23:54Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> Perhaps I am missing the point. But if I am, it’s because I’m missing the “why” behind it all. As in why do we have the ability to sin and not animals? Is there a proper Christian response to this?
**Clockwork** provided appropriate definitions, but it basically boils down to the fact that humans are special, created in the image of God, with the ability to choose between right and wrong. Animals were not created that way. There’s no answer as to “why” God did it this way.
And when I say that creation has been corrupted, I don’t mean to imply that creation is morally culpable. Just that when humanity sinned, death entered the world, and creation is no longer the perfect creation it once was. The animals can’t help being part of the food chain; they’re not responsible for that state of affairs.
As far as the question of whether or not newborn babies are sinners, you will find fundamentalists (especially strong Calvinists) who say say yes. Other Christians distinguish between being “a sinner” (as in, intentionally sinning) and being tainted with a sinful nature (as a result of the Fall). Hence the Catholic doctrine of Limbo for newborn (unbaptized) babies who die.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/36 "2010-05-12T19:16:31Z")
Meh, “sin” is just somebody trying to get you to give them power over you. Fuck 'em.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/37 "2010-05-12T19:40:37Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#):
>
> **Christians** , is there a specific verse in Scripture teaching animals don’t have souls?
It’s not touched on directly AFAIK, but Ecclesiastes3:21 says
> [@](#):
>
> Who knows that the spirit of man ascends up while the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
Although, to be fair, there are other verses even in the same book that say that there is no difference between animals and humans after death.
The idea of the soul is more a Greek idea, coming in from neo-Platonism, than an ancient Jewish idea. Even the Sadducees of Jesus’ denied that there was an afterlife, or souls.
[St. Thomas Aquinas](http://www.radicalacademy.com/aquinas3.htm) talked a lot about animals and souls, if you are interested in the subject.
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> Meh, “sin” is just somebody trying to get you to give them power over you. Fuck 'em.
Animals? Ooh, kinky.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/38 "2010-05-12T19:47:01Z")
I thought that there was some Bible passage saying that man was given ‘dominion’ over animals and plants, and minerals too for all I know. I thought they were basically all given to us for our own use.
So, does Christian dogma really distinguish among animals minerals or vegetables? Well, there is the Ark story to save animals, but my assumption was they were saved from drowning because they were so useful, and minerals and vegetables didn’t need saving.
Except surely the people of the time must have understood that many plants can drown, so I wonder why Noah wasn’t also told to collect plants to save too?
Which leads me to wonder what if any significant differences Christians find among animals, plants, and minerals?
Sorry if this is too much of a hijack.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/39 "2010-05-12T19:48:39Z")
I see man’s relationship to animals as the angels relationship to man. As there are good men who care about the animals and bad ones that exploit them, as there are good and bad angels who treat us in those ways. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, but men are suffering there instead, as some animals are suffering on factory farms and destroyed habitats.
Animals were sacrificed for the sins of man, originally we were all meant to eat plants, and that’s what Jesus came to restore, we will not be eating the flesh of the souls of God’s animals anymore, as angels (demons) will no longer consume the flesh of man, and the original sin will be bore back to the place it came from, that of the devil.
In the end Jesus doesn’t condemn us, for He sees that our pain is caused by those who have much more power at levels we can’t understand, so our animals are just bearing part of our pain, so that to will be removed and restored.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/40 "2010-05-12T20:01:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> I see man’s relationship to animals as the angels relationship to man. As there are good men who care about the animals and bad ones that exploit them, as there are good and bad angels who treat us in those ways. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, but men are suffering there instead, as some animals are suffering on factory farms and destroyed habitats.
>
> Animals were sacrificed for the sins of man, originally we were all meant to eat plants, and that’s what Jesus came to restore, we will not be eating the flesh of the souls of God’s animals anymore, as angels (demons) will no longer consume the flesh of man, and the original sin will be bore back to the place it came from, that of the devil.
>
> In the end Jesus doesn’t condemn us, for He sees that our pain is caused by those who have much more power at levels we can’t understand, so our animals are just bearing part of our pain, so that to will be removed and restored.
I’m taking the above to mean that I can have your cheeseburger.
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