# Christians: Aren't animals sinners?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 12, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191 "2010-05-12T17:08:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 6
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/61 "2010-05-13T20:00:01Z")
Yes, people were aware that plants could drown. When crops were lost due to flooding I think it was pretty obvious.
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### Author:  [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/62 "2010-05-13T20:31:41Z")
**Boyo Jim** said:
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> Except surely the people of the time must have understood that many plants can drown, so I wonder why Noah wasn’t also told to collect plants to save too?
Perhaps because plants grow from seeds, which can be buried, or else are encased in a hard shell and can withstand environmental turmoils before finding ground on which to grow.
**Boyo Jim** said:
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> Basically yes, this is what I’t trying to get at. Can a human sin against an animal, as opposed to a plant?
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> Maybe I should take a step back from there to get my terminology right. I think of one person killing another as the first sinning against the 2nd. Though perhaps I am mistaken here – is this sin against the other person, or against God, or both?
What is sin? The definition I’m given is “separation from God”, i.e. violation of God’s commandments and instructions. Therefore, _all_ sin is sin against God. People do not sin against other people, they only sin against God by violating God’s instructions.
Now the instructions that they violate may be in how they treat other people, and they may be wronging the other person in how they treat that person, but the sin is violating the compact with God.
So regarding animals, cruelty is a sin against God, by virtue of being cruel to the animal. Wanton destruction of plants may be a sin against God. You can’t sin against a plant, you can’t sin against a puppy, you can’t sin against your wife.
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> For instance, is it a sin to kill another person’s horse? Would it be a sin if it was a wild horse? Would it be a sin if you tortured the wild horse to death for fun and had no intention of eating the meat or using the hide, etc?
The answers depend upon your understanding of God’s commandments and instructions. My take: yes, it is a sin to kill another person’s horse, because you are destroying his property and thereby stealing. Yes, you could sin by killing a wild horse depending upon the circumstances. Killing to eat if God said it’s okay to eat horse meat, not a sin. Killing by torture for the pleasure of the torture? Definitely a sin. The Devil is in the details. 😉
**Skammer** said:
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> All sin is ultimately a sin against God. Obviously, I can also sin against you: if I have an affair with your spouse, I’ve sinned against God, you, your spouse, and my own wife.
Not “obviously”. Sin is only against God. You have wronged the man by violating his marriage, you have wronged the woman by helping violate her marriage commitment, you have wronged your own spouse by violating your own marriage commitment. But the sin is only by violating God’s commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s ass (oh, sorry, I get confused).
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> But if I kick a puppy, I’m not sure that I’ve sinned against the puppy any more than I’ve sinned against a tree by cutting it down for no reason. I recognize that one is more condemnable than the other but in my opinion, I’ve offended God and not the puppy or the tree.
Correct, but that applies not just to trees and puppies, but to your “neighbor”, the wife, etc. as well.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/63 "2010-05-13T21:03:48Z")
> [@Irishman](#):
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> People do not sin against other people, they only sin against God by violating God’s instructions.
I disagree. From the parable of the Prodigal Son:
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven **and against you**. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’” (Luke 15:20-21)
See also Exodus 10:16 – “Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, ‘I have sinned against the LORD your God **and against you**.’”
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [May 14, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/64 "2010-05-14T12:57:44Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
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> You’re missing the important point that humans were made in the image of God, with the ability to choose between right and wrong. Even the most intelligent animals are incapable of that. A dog can choose to disobey you, but does not have a conscience and does not experience shame for being disobedient.
We had a dog that showed shame. Once he grabbed a duck and ran through the corn field, I hollered at him and he was gone all day long, then toward evening he came back with his tail between his legs, his head down. There were several other examples like that. and he never repeated the things he had been scolded for.
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [May 14, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/65 "2010-05-14T13:03:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#):
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> The simple answer is that Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. By that act, they became corrupted and introduced sin to the world, and to humanity.
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> The animals did not disobey God and did not eat from the Tree. Ergo, animals do not know good from evil and _cannot_ sin.
Remember, the punishment for sin was said to be death, no mention of soul or eternal punishment? Everything that is alive will die, there still is a matter of what the difference between life and soul is.
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### Author:  [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)
#### Post date: [May 14, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-animals-sinners/539191/66 "2010-05-14T21:13:50Z")
**Skammar** , I grant you can find examples where that language is used. I suppose it relies on how one defines “sin”.
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