# Christians aren't perfect...Just forgiven. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123 "2005-06-06T13:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/21 "2005-06-06T15:05:28Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > No. But that’s not the bumper sticker we’re talking about. True. That was the point of using a non-religious example. What’s so special about a sticker advertisting religious affiliation that it automatically causes you to infer that it’s putting you down, when you don’t infer that from stickers that advertise non-religious things? ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/22 "2005-06-06T15:07:23Z")
The bumper sticker rubs me slightly the wrong way, mainly because of the “I’m Saved, so anything I do is OK” attitude I’ve come across from some people. However, it’s not nearly as annoying as the “Come the Rapture this car wil be empty” variety. On the whole, I think that if bumper stickers are the best way for you to express your beliefs, you might want to consider spending some more time thinking about them. (And yes, that goes for the Darwin fish too.) > [@Metacom](#): > > “I’m a Christian, but I belong to an extremely liberal congregation and have never voted Republican in my life. I don’t believe that the entire bible is literal fact. I believe in evolution and abortion for all. I think that atheists are superior beings, and if I was any smarter I’d shure be one. If you can read this, you’re tailgaiting me. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.” 😉 Speaking of generalizations… ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/23 "2005-06-06T15:07:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I can see where the message might come across as “We’re forgiven _because_ we’re Christian,” but that’s not the case. It’s just that Christians have _asked_ for forgiveness because that’s part of what they do, and God is faithful to forgive. That’s not to say that _only_ Christians are forgiven, either. Whoever wants forgiveness need only ask for it. The only way I can imagine the message to be offensive in that light is if for some reason you believe that asking is too onerous a chore, and that it should be forced on people whether they want it or not. But why that would be preferable is unclear. I seem to recall other threads with very illuminating explanations of why many of us feel no need to ask forgiveness for our nature, which God himself gave us. It seems rather coercive to say, “Ask forgiveness or be punished for eternity.” Eternal punishment for finite sin is also problematical to some of us on a logical level. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/24 "2005-06-06T15:09:30Z")
To me, the message translates to an active lowering of the bar of expectations. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/25 "2005-06-06T15:09:57Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > Speaking of generalizations… The wink was there for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/26 "2005-06-06T15:11:33Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > The wink was there for a reason. Ah. missed that. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/27 "2005-06-06T15:11:46Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Wow. I’m glad there’s someone out there qualified to judge who True Christians are, other then God. Maybe you can start a website: [www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com](http://www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com)? > > And, of course, there’s nothing in between. I think you’re getting a little too touchy here. I am certainly not qualified to judge a True Christian, but damn, if I’m not qualified to state my own opinion, then who is? I see no reason to get defensive and sarcastic. What in my post was so offensive to you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/28 "2005-06-06T15:12:42Z")
I see it as smug and insulting. The obvious implication is that anyone who isn’t a Christian is _not_ “forgiven” (for what, I have no idea) and is going to Hell. It’s not “humble,” it’s passive aggressive. It’s not real humility, it’s a _pretense_ of humility. It says “we’re more humble than you.” Really, what is the point? What message are they hoping to convey? What do they want to accomplish? Are non-Christians supposed to be impressed somehow? Is it supposed to make us want to convert? Bahh…no matter. It’s free speech. But I do automatically assume the person with the sticker is a tool. I guess it’s still not as bad as that one that says “No Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, Know Peace.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/29 "2005-06-06T15:13:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > WTF?!! > > I object strenuously!!! :mad: > > Let’s get it perfectly clear right here and now. There is only one _chosen_ people! ;j > > Thankyouverymuch. :dubious: I disagree. Highly. And what does this have to do with the thread in question? ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/30 "2005-06-06T15:20:33Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s not real humility, it’s a _pretense_ of humility. It says “we’re more humble than you.” Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/31 "2005-06-06T15:25:14Z")
I can’t believe I’m doing it, but I’m siding _with_ the bumper sticker (I hate bumper stickers; I about choked on a skittle when I saw the dreaded [Bush fish](http://www.christianswhothink.com/index.php/2005/05/14/bush_fish)). This isn’t lording (hee?) anything over anyone, it’s simply saying you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I, like **furt** , wonder if there’s a bumper sticker with a Christian message that won’t get pitted. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/32 "2005-06-06T15:26:33Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Wow. I’m glad there’s someone out there qualified to judge who True Christians are, other then God. Maybe you can start a website: [www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com](http://www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com)? > > And, of course, there’s nothing in between. Metacom, perhaps you should read what Jesus thought of the religious people of his time(the Pharisee’s) They were the letter of the law keeping, wearing their religion on their sleeve people of his day (so to speak); Jesus didn’t seem to like them much.didn’t have much good to say about them,he seemed to prefer sinners! I guess he meant it Monavis ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/33 "2005-06-06T15:26:58Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > True. That was the point of using a non-religious example. What’s so special about a sticker advertisting religious affiliation that it automatically causes you to infer that it’s putting you down, when you don’t infer that from stickers that advertise non-religious things? It’s not a matter of religious vs non-religious, it’s just a matter of smug/condescending vs non-. If I saw a bumper sticker that said “I may not be the smartest person, but at least I got into Harvard, and you didn’t”, I might read that as smug. On the other hand, one that said “I may not be the best husband, but my wife still gives me snuggles” is pretty non-offensive. I can see the religious sticker as expressing either sentiment. And no matter which one was originally intended, I can see buyers of it harboring either sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/34 "2005-06-06T15:33:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Really, what is the point? What message are they hoping to convey? I suppose it depends on who the target audience is. Whether that target is Christians or non-Christians would make a huge difference in the intended meaning, I would guess. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/35 "2005-06-06T15:34:27Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > This isn’t lording (hee?) anything over anyone, it’s simply saying you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I, like **furt** , wonder if there’s a bumper sticker with a Christian message that won’t get pitted. I find [these](http://www.oaaa.org/news/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=1354) to be amusing, truthful and very pro-Christian. If I saw one as a bumper-sticker, I would give the driver a “thumbs-up.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/36 "2005-06-06T15:37:34Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Metacom, perhaps you should … I have read it, although I don’t know why you think I need to read it. > [@monavis](#): > > I guess he meant it Yes, he did mean it: He came to forgive those who were sinners. It’s one of the more widely agreed on aspects of the religion, and one of the more inoffensive ones when it comes to bumper-sticker fodder. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/37 "2005-06-06T15:38:00Z")
The message appears smug to me too. But I wonder if it has any evangalistic (is that a word?) qualities too. A non-Christian or a Christian who has lost faith could read that sign and possibly consider that they would receive forgiveness through Christianity. In other words, the smug overtone may impress upon some readers that the owner of the sticker feels good about themselves due to Christianity. The reader may not feel all that wonderful and be envious of somebody who has achieved um, serenity for lack of a better term. btw - I do not posess one of these stickers and do not evangelize. I attend church regularly when I am dragged into one. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/38 "2005-06-06T15:39:57Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It’s not a matter of religious vs non-religious, it’s just a matter of smug/condescending vs non-. > > If I saw a bumper sticker that said “I may not be the smartest person, but at least I got into Harvard, and you didn’t”, I might read that as smug. On the other hand, one that said “I may not be the best husband, but my wife still gives me snuggles” is pretty non-offensive. > > I can see the religious sticker as expressing either sentiment. And no matter which one was originally intended, I can see buyers of it harboring either sentiment. I agree with you…not all intend to proselytise,but many do. One can just ignore it. This is a free country and they can put what they want on their bumper stickers but that doesn’t make it so. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/39 "2005-06-06T15:44:38Z")
Here’s an example of a non-religious bumper sticker that I find to be similarly smug: “02138: The World’s Most Opinionated ZIP Code” AKA: “We live near Harvard, therefore we _must_ be cool” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/40 "2005-06-06T15:47:31Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > “02138: The World’s Most Opinionated ZIP Code” > > AKA: “We live near Harvard, therefore we _must_ be cool” I don’t know. Seems rather self-effacing to me. As in “We live near Harvard, therefore we must be opinionated.” And this from someone who was steeped in Harvard culture for 10 weeks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=3)