# Christians aren't perfect...Just forgiven. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123 "2005-06-06T13:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/41 "2005-06-06T15:51:13Z")
And since I have brought up the idea that it might indeed be intended humbly (as some others did), I present another possibility. I don’t think it applies in this case, but if you see a more overtly smug bumper sticker, don’t assume the driver’s a jackass. It might be irony. “I’m Chevy Chase, and you’re not.” Okay, bad example, Chevy is a bit of a jackass, but you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/42 "2005-06-06T15:55:50Z")
It would be better if it said We’re not perfect, just forgiven, meaning we=all of us. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/43 "2005-06-06T15:56:05Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > :dubious: I disagree. > > Highly. > > And what does this have to do with the thread in question? To reply, in your own words… > [@Anaamika](#): > > I think you’re getting a little too touchy here. I am certainly not qualified to judge a True Christian, but damn, if I’m not qualified to state my own opinion, then who is? I see no reason to get defensive and sarcastic. What in my post was so offensive to you? I was KIDDING about the _chosen_ people crap. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/44 "2005-06-06T16:04:23Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > It doesn’t say “God says you suck” - it doesn’t say anything about \*\*you \*\* at all (sorry, not \*everything’s \* about you after all). Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/45 "2005-06-06T16:11:47Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I don’t know. Seems rather self-effacing to me. As in “We live near Harvard, therefore we must be opinionated.” > > And this from someone who was steeped in Harvard culture for 10 weeks. I confess, I may have a chip on my shoulder in reference to the denizens of Cambridge. (I’ve lived in the Boston area for about 6 years now.) > [@Clothahump](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. To be fair, it doesn’t say that _flat out_. You or I may infer that, but it is possible that the bumper sticker owner doesn’t mean it that way. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/46 "2005-06-06T16:12:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. It doesn’t say that, you’re just reading that into it. And that may be the intent behind it - then again, it may not. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/47 "2005-06-06T16:24:39Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. So, clearly, you’re saying flat out that it’s inoffensive and that in fact you find it to be a source of comfort and encouragement. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/48 "2005-06-06T16:32:36Z")
You know, as an atheist, i have a hard time getting offended by that bumper sticker. Even if you interpret it in the most unforgiving way, as saying “We’re going to heaven and you’re going to hell,” it might seem rather smug and self-satisfied, but i’m not sure that it’s something to get too worried about. After all, as an atheist i don’t feel any need at all for forgiveness from some non-existent creator. Nor do i care about assertions that i’m on the way to hell, because i don’t even believe that such a place exists. And if people want to treat me as a lesser person because of this, they’re free to go ahead, and i will ignore them, or rfeturn their abuse, as the case merits. It is, however, a bit worrying when people with this attitude start making policy. I am sort of interested, though, in the rather antinomian message that seems implicit in the bumper sticker—the idea that, once saved, a person has no need to strive for perfection. I’m not up on the most recent teaching of all the Christian denominations in the United States, but the notion that being saved somehow absolves a person from responsibility for their actions or from the need to continue to attempt to lead a perfect Christian life is rather antithetical to much of the history of American religiom. The Puritans certainly did not believe that receiving God’s grace was a license to disregard Biblical admonitions about worldly behaviour. In fact, John Cotton said in his _Treatise on the Covenant of Grace_: > [@](#): > > If any therefore shall accuse the Doctrine of the Covenant of free Grace of Antinomianism, and say, it teacheth men freedome from the Law of Moses; and if they commit any sin, they plead they are not bound unto the Law; we see how false such an aspersion would be; for all the people of God know, that the Lord is an avenger of every such wickedness. There is none under a Covenant of Grace that dare allow himself in any sin; for if a man should negligently commit any sin, the Lord will school him throughly, and make him sadly to apprehend how he hath made bold with the treasures of the grace of God…So that the children of the Covenant of grace will only tell you that they are free from the Covenant of the Law, but not from the Commandment of it. And it wasn’t just the Puritans. The nineteenth century evangelist Charles Grandison Finney, a key figure in the Second Great Awakening, made it even clearer: > [@](#): > > Young converts should be taught so as to understand what perseverance is. It is astonishing how people talk about perseverance. As if the doctrine of perseverance is: “Once in grace, always in grace”; or, “Once converted, sure to go to heaven.” This is not the idea of perseverance. The true idea is, that if a man is truly converted, he will CONTINUE to obey God; and as a consequence, he will surely go to heaven. But if a person gets the idea that because he is “converted,” therefore he will assuredly go to heaven, that man will almost assuredly go to hell. As i said above, i’m not sure exactly what is taught in American churches every Sunday, but i’d be surprised if there were many ministers preaching that, once saved or forgiven, you are free of any worldly obligations and need place no restraint on your worldly actions. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/49 "2005-06-06T16:32:55Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. No, actually, it doesn’t. You’ve inferred that, which is your right, but it does not say, _flat out_, anything about non-Christians. What cracks me up is how often, in Pit threads about Christianity, somebody will castigate a Christian for showing temper or using a swear word, charging the Christian with hypocrisy (“oh, you’re supposed to be so holy! But you swore! Bad Christian!”). (Paraphrasing again, I can’t cite to a specific thread). Now, here comes a Christian saying, “hey, Christians aren’t perfect, and we don’t claim to be”. And this makes us arrogant? Some days you just can’t win . . . ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/50 "2005-06-06T16:33:11Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, clearly, you’re saying flat out that it’s inoffensive and that in fact you find it to be a source of comfort and encouragement. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/51 "2005-06-06T16:36:39Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I see it as smug and insulting. The obvious implication is that anyone who isn’t a Christian is _not_ “forgiven” That’s not at all obvious to me. It wouldn’t have occured to me that the bumper sticker was saying or implying anything about nonchristians. One of the first rules of logic is that the statement “All X’s are Y” tells you _nothing whatsoever_ about non-X’s. Anything else I might have to say has already been said better by **Genghis Bob** in Post #10. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/52 "2005-06-06T16:39:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I am sort of interested, though, in the rather antinomian message that seems implicit in the bumper sticker—the idea that, once saved, a person has no need to strive for perfection. I’m not up on the most recent teaching of all the Christian denominations in the United States, but the notion that being saved somehow absolves a person from responsibility for their actions or from the need to continue to attempt to lead a perfect Christian life is rather antithetical to much of the history of American religiom. Hmm… I can see how you might read that into it, but I don’t. As flawed beings, subject to temptation, who’ve sinned in the past - can they (the hypothetical Christians) ever BE perfect in the Christian sense? I don’t think so, but that doesn’t mean one can’t strive for it anyway. And Puritans? Pfft. Those guys were totally boring and had stupid hats. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/53 "2005-06-06T16:43:34Z")
I don’t see it as a declaration of superiority ("I’m going to Heaven…and you’re not) as much as an admission of a lack of personal accountability (“God is my alibi”). That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody posting that sticker did feel a sense of superiority. There are Christians who take as much comfort from their belief that other people are going to Hell as they do from their belief that they are going to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/54 "2005-06-06T16:46:09Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > The only generalization I saw in the OP was in the bumper sticker itself. Does that mean you have a problem with the bumper sticker? Not at all. What I have a problem with is stuff like this: > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Actually, what it really means is that they don’t even have to try and follow the “10 Simple Rules for Saving Your Soul”. If you call them out on their cheating, lying, blaspheming ways, they can just turn over the “Get Out of Hell Free” card of forgivness. No need to actually put any effort into being a good and honest person. Not to pick on **Cheesy** , but that one guy doesn’t represent all of us. I’m tired of that attitude, not just here on the SDMB, but everywhere. Cue the regulars to come in and accuse me of having a martyr complex. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/55 "2005-06-06T16:47:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. It says, flat out, if you ain’t a Christian, you ain’t worth shit. And it is that arrogance that really turns people off. No, that’s actually not what it says. You’re reading your own prejudice into it. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/56 "2005-06-06T16:58:13Z")
Okay, I can see some points made here, but if people are going to witness from the bumper of their car, could they at least make sure the message is clear? It seems to me that the bumper sticker is left open to interpretation, which can be easily interpreted to a message they don’t want to send. I still see the message as crass, but I’m willing to entertain the thought that the person is only seeing a narrow reading of it. If that’s the case, I’ll let them off the hook as just not all that bright. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/57 "2005-06-06T16:58:55Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Hmm… I can see how you might read that into it, but I don’t. As flawed beings, subject to temptation, who’ve sinned in the past - can they (the hypothetical Christians) ever BE perfect in the Christian sense? I don’t think so, but that doesn’t mean one can’t strive for it anyway. Well, i’m sure that there are plenty who use this sticker, and who follow your interpretation. Good for them, i say; we need more people like them. I’ve already made clear that i’m not offended by it. But unfortunately recent experience suggests that there are also plenty of Christians who interpret it to mean that they are better than others, that they are somehow absolved of worldy concerns and obligations that attach to us mere mortals. And i think that it a rather worrying attitude. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > And Puritans? Pfft. Those guys were totally boring and had stupid hats. Actually, the Puritans were, in my opinion, some of the least boring people in American history. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/58 "2005-06-06T17:01:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > . . . Actually, the Puritans were, in my opinion, some of the least boring people in American history. But the hats? Totally stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/59 "2005-06-06T17:02:59Z")
Christians aren’t perfect… _but the lions seem to like them_. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/60 "2005-06-06T17:04:39Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Christians aren’t perfect… _but the lions seem to like them_. I’m tracking that damn car down and slapping that on their bumper! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=4)