# Christians aren't perfect...Just forgiven. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123 "2005-06-06T13:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/61 "2005-06-06T17:18:33Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Christians aren’t perfect… _but the lions seem to like them_. Speaking as a life-long Detroiter, I can say with confidence that the Christians got nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/62 "2005-06-06T17:32:17Z")
It’s a friggen _Bumper Sticker_… I see stupid ones all the time. This one, I feel, is just one of many of the stupid ones. Christians aren’t forgiven just for being Christian… if I remember my old Sunday school lessons, Christians have to ask to be forgiven and actually, truely, in their heart feel sorry for what they did. If I were still a Christian I would feel that the bumper stick demeaned Christianity by belittling the effort and honesty needed to gain forgiveness. As a non-Christian, it bothers me not a whit. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/63 "2005-06-06T17:35:13Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > I’m tracking that damn car down and slapping that on their bumper! Stalking and vandalism. Way to take the high road. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/64 "2005-06-06T17:35:19Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > It doesn’t say “God says you suck” - it doesn’t say anything about \*\*you \*\* at all (sorry, not \*everything’s \* about you after all). Actually, it _is_ about me, or at least, whoever is behind that car in traffic. That’s who the message’s intended recipient is, anyway. Otherwise it’d be on the car’s dashboard, not its bumper. The driver is clearly trying to tell whoever happens to be behind him _something_, and it seems what it says is going to be very dependent on who reads it. If it’s another Christian, it’s going to just be a cute little slogan about their shared faith. If it’s not a Christian, though, it’s pretty hard to read it as anything other than smug and condescending. That was my reaction when I first saw one of these, and it wasn’t until this thread that I’d even considered an alternative interpretation. Why? Because outside of a car, if some total stranger walks up to you and starts talking about his religion, the _only_ reason he’s doing it is to evangelize. And that’s what this bumpersticker is the equivalent of. I don’t know the driver. I don’t care about the driver. I certainly don’t care which invisibile spirit the driver chooses to worship in. So why the fuck is he telling me that he’s saved? Obviously, it must be because he thinks I’m some sort of worthless heathen that needs to be converted, right? That’s why everyone _else_ does that. Of course, once I’ve written it out like that, it’s obvious that way too much of that interpretation is context-dependent on the viewer. Probably, the driver is only thinking of how other Christians will view the bumpersticker. But it’s a fuckin’ bumpersticker! Who the hell puts as much thought into parsing a bumpersticker? (Besides me, I mean, and I’m only doing it because of this thread.) Most people are going to see it, get pissed off/agree with it depending on their personal prejudices, and never give it a second thought except to bitch to their (presumedly) like-minded friends and associates. Anyway, bottomline for me is, the sticker probably isn’t _meant_ to be offensive, but is likely to be read that way by anyone who doesn’t share the driver’s faith. Probably a good idea to not put one of these on your car. Of course, I’ve always felt those “My Child is an Honor Student” stickers to be unendurably arrogant, so what the fuck do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/65 "2005-06-06T17:40:45Z")
But a message to you isn’t necessarily a message about you, is it? If a bumper sticker says, “I love New York”, is that about you? Does it mean the driver loves New York but not you? Does it mean that whatever state you’re in sucks? Does it mean that people living in other states are worthless and unloveable? It is amazing to me that the same person who takes offense from the OP’s bumper sticker blinks not an eye at sneaking behind the car and plastering her own hate-speech sticker that the driver should be eaten by wild animals. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/66 "2005-06-06T17:42:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Of course, I’ve always felt those “My Child is an Honor Student” stickers to be unendurably arrogant, so what the fuck do I know? On a side note, [you might like these.](http://www.bumperart.com/ProductsList.aspx?CategoryId=48) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/67 "2005-06-06T17:42:31Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > It’s a friggen _Bumper Sticker_… I see stupid ones all the time. My downstairs neighbor had one that said “I support the flag… And I vote!” Gah? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/68 "2005-06-06T17:43:57Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > I can’t believe I’m doing it, but I’m siding _with_ the bumper sticker (I hate bumper stickers; I about choked on a skittle when I saw the dreaded [Bush fish](http://www.christianswhothink.com/index.php/2005/05/14/bush_fish)). > > This isn’t lording (hee?) anything over anyone, it’s simply saying you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I, like **furt** , wonder if there’s a bumper sticker with a Christian message that won’t get pitted. I agree. Seems a little like you’re \*looking \* to be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/69 "2005-06-06T18:03:08Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But a message to you isn’t necessarily a message about you, is it? If a bumper sticker says, “I love New York”, is that about you? Does it mean the driver loves New York but not you? Does it mean that whatever state you’re in sucks? Does it mean that people living in other states are worthless and unloveable? Well, yeah. That’s more or less what I was trying to say in the second paragraph of my last post. The first paragraph was about my initial impression of the sticker, not what I realized it meant after thinking about it for a couple minutes. I just think this is a poor sticker to put on your car, because people who aren’t Christian are likely to mis-interpret it. Actually, I’ll just go a step further and say that _all_ bumper stickers are a poor idea. Seriously. They’re dumb, unoriginal, uninteresting, and damage the re-sale value of your car. Take that shit off. Nobody cares how smart your fucking border collie/honor student/lord and savior is. Just shut up and drive. > [@](#): > > It is amazing to me that the same person who takes offense from the OP’s bumper sticker blinks not an eye at sneaking behind the car and plastering her own hate-speech sticker that the driver should be eaten by wild animals. Eye for an eye, right? Not being a follower of the Bible myself, I don’t care for that particular doctrine, but who am I to judge the religious tendencies of others? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/70 "2005-06-06T18:17:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Stalking and vandalism. Way to take the high road. Oh lighten up, I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/71 "2005-06-06T18:26:04Z")
“Whites aren’t perfect … Just forgiven.” “Americans aren’t perfect … Just forgiven.” “Women aren’t perfect … Just forgiven.” Yeah, the implication is there. But it’s supposed to be. That’s the point of bumper sticker preaching. It’s like that spam mail you get, YOU COULD BE FORGIVEN! Apply now! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/72 "2005-06-06T18:28:18Z")
Not to muddy these waters further, but what are “Baby on Board” stickers supposed to do? I don’t get these at all. (And as for the OP, I agree with the people who say if your Christianity makes you want to put bumper stickers on your car trumpeting it, you might want to re-visit Jesus Christ’s message.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/73 "2005-06-06T18:31:41Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Oh lighten up, I was joking. Oh, okay. Well me too, then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/74 "2005-06-06T18:41:08Z")
How can a person claim to be forgiven? They wouldn’t have any way of knowing until they die. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/75 "2005-06-06T18:44:03Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#): > > Or it can mean just what it says. Honestly, I don’t understand what’s so bad about that particular bumper sticker, other than the fact that its affixed to someone’s car. I’ve read much, much worse. Yup. Like yesterday in the building supply store, when I found myself walking behind a guy wearing a T-shirt featuring a mock dialogue between Concerned Parents who wanted to know why God permitted so much violence in the schools, and the following reply from God: “I’m not allowed in the schools.” Indeed, Satan has _hermetically sealed_ the schools, banishing all thoughts of God, all prayers, all private conversations and the like. Or maybe it’s Cthulhu. Or the school board (most powerful and feared of all forces of darkness, acting through their black-robed puppets on the Supreme Court). Whatever - it’s amazing how pitifully weak and ineffectual some purportedly religious folk consider their deity to be. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/76 "2005-06-06T18:46:20Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > This isn’t lording (hee?) anything over anyone, it’s simply saying you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I, like **furt** , wonder if there’s a bumper sticker with a Christian message that won’t get pitted. I’ve always liked “Jesus was a liberal” myself. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/77 "2005-06-06T18:49:30Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > (And as for the OP, I agree with the people who say if your Christianity makes you want to put bumper stickers on your car trumpeting it, you might want to re-visit Jesus Christ’s message.) Heh. “Trumpeting.” Y’know, if people can get custom car horns to play _La Cucaracha_, then _Rock of Ages_ or _Onward Christian Soldiers_ ought to be available somewhere… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/78 "2005-06-06T18:56:58Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > Now, here comes a Christian saying, “hey, Christians aren’t perfect, and we don’t claim to be”. And this makes us arrogant? Some days you just can’t win . . . Acknowledging one’s imperfection isn’t arrogant. Suggesting that one is unique in one’s forgiven-ness is. As a Jew, I ask G-d to forgive my sins, and I believe that it’s in G-d’s power to forgive me my errors. But I don’t feel the need to advertise it on my car (or my t-shirt, or my email sig), and I’ve yet to meet a Jew who does. > [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > That’s not at all obvious to me. It wouldn’t have occured to me that the bumper sticker was saying or implying anything about nonchristians. One of the first rules of logic is that the statement “All X’s are Y” tells you nothing whatsoever about non-X’s. In the realm of pure logic, this is true. But most people don’t think in purely logical terms. Most people will infer that because the sticker names X in its assertion, the assertion does not apply to non-X’s. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/79 "2005-06-06T19:07:32Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Suggesting that one is unique in one’s forgiven-ness is. But it didn’t say that only Christians are forgiven. Why do you insist on reading that into it? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/80 "2005-06-06T19:12:30Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > I’ve always liked “Jesus was a liberal” myself. Word. If any decal would have adorned my CR-V it would have been one of those “God is not a Republican (or a Democrat)” type stickers. > [@featherlou](#): > > Not to muddy these waters further, but what are “Baby on Board” stickers supposed to do? I don’t get these at all. “Look honey!” (holding ‘baby on board’ sign) “Now people will stop intentionally ramming into our car!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=5)