# Christians aren't perfect...Just forgiven. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123 "2005-06-06T13:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/81 "2005-06-06T19:26:11Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Wow. I’m glad there’s someone out there qualified to judge who True Christians are, other then God. Maybe you can start a website: [www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com](http://www.anaamikaratesyourfaith.com)? > > And, of course, there’s nothing in between. Why would Anaami karate my faith? I can’t get myself worked up over a bumper sticker, even such a stupid one. Put it on a magnetic ribbon and slap it on the rear of your car, and then I’ll get offended. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/82 "2005-06-06T19:42:28Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Not to pick on **Cheesy** , but that one guy doesn’t represent all of us. I’m tired of that attitude, not just here on the SDMB, but everywhere. When he/she uses the word “they”, I certainly understand it to be referring to the driver, i.e., the person with the bumper sticker, not some large unnamed group. That would mean that once again, the generalization is the bumper-sticker itself. I repeat, does that mean you have a problem with the bumper-sticker? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/83 "2005-06-06T19:48:51Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > That would mean that once again, the generalization is the bumper-sticker itself. Some of the sticker haters are saying it is a generalization, and some are saying it is not. In fact, that was the original complaint, wasn’t it? That it implies that Christians _specifically_ are the forgiven ones? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/84 "2005-06-06T20:24:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Some of the sticker haters are saying it is a generalization, and some are saying it is not. In fact, that was the original complaint, wasn’t it? That it implies that Christians _specifically_ are the forgiven ones? I think it implies that ALL Christians are forgiven, thus making it a generalization. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/85 "2005-06-06T20:27:43Z")
Heck, that bumper sticker isn’t nearly as bad as what I once heard on the radio. My dad listens to a radio show by a guy named John MacArthur, and I was in the car with him and the intro to the radio show came on, with a guy saying something to the effect of “While Christians may not be sinless, it’s true that they do _sin less_ than other people.” Pissed me right off, it did. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/86 "2005-06-06T20:48:31Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > “While Christians may not be sinless, it’s true that they do _sin less_ than other people.” I heard a guy on the radio say “Only Christians are capable of true forgiveness.” Putz. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/87 "2005-06-06T21:37:28Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I think it implies that ALL Christians are forgiven, thus making it a generalization. Well, I suppose so. As I said, I can see how it might be misinterpreted. Do you think [this tee shirt](http://www.atheists-online.com/store.asp?shop=0500) generalizes? Do you think Christians should take offense from it? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/88 "2005-06-06T21:39:33Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I heard a guy on the radio say “Only Christians are capable of true forgiveness.” > > Putz. "We’re a _lot_ more humble than _you_ are. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/89 "2005-06-06T21:42:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, I suppose so. As I said, I can see how it might be misinterpreted. Do you think [this tee shirt](http://www.atheists-online.com/store.asp?shop=0500) generalizes? Do you think Christians should take offense from it? Yes, and yes. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/90 "2005-06-06T21:47:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, I suppose so. As I said, I can see how it might be misinterpreted. Do you think [this tee shirt](http://www.atheists-online.com/store.asp?shop=0500) generalizes? Do you think Christians should take offense from it? Yes, it generalizes and is indeed aimed at Christians, even though it doesn’t explicitly say so (see how easy that is?). As for whether Christians should take offense, I have no clue. You’ll notice I didn’t state that I took offense to the bumper-sticker in question, so I’m not sure what relevance my opinion on the offensive nature of the t-shirt, or lack thereof, has in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/91 "2005-06-06T21:56:42Z")
Liberal, before we continue down this path, let me clear up something. I was simply point out to Lord Ashtar that the bumper-sticker itself was a generalization, so if he was going to be offended by generalizations (especially where none was present), he should be decrying the bumper-sticker. If you wish to debate that, I’ll happily do so. If you wish to continue to ask me questions about what Christians might or might not think of some T-shirt, you should know that you’d be better off asking an actual Christian. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/92 "2005-06-06T22:15:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But it didn’t say that only Christians are forgiven. Why do you insist on reading that into it? It refers explicitly to Christians, thus implying that the sentiment applies only to Christians. If it’s meant to apply to anyone else, why not say, “I’m not perfect, just forgiven” or “Don’t worry, you’re forgiven” ? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/93 "2005-06-06T22:52:37Z")
Actually, I’ve also seen this same bumper sticker and wound up shaking my head at it. You see, it was on a minivan parked in a handicapped space at a restaurant, yet there was no handicapped sticker or other indication that the person it belonged to was entitled to use a handicapped space. It was where they were parked in conjunction with the bumper sticker that lowered my opinion of the driver. I was also going out to dinner with friends who went from born again Christians to Wiccans so we were able to get some perspective on it. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/94 "2005-06-06T23:20:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, clearly, you’re saying flat out that it’s inoffensive and that in fact you find it to be a source of comfort and encouragement. No, amigo, clearly I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/95 "2005-06-06T23:23:50Z")
I’ve always taken this statement positively, since there are certainly those who think that Christians are, if not perfect, at least a great deal closer to it than non-Christians are. To me, it’s saying that despite what some may think, Christians _don’t_ hold any position of moral superiority over others, and for a Christian to believe that they do completely misses the point that grace is a gift from God, wholly undeserved by any human deed. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/96 "2005-06-06T23:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob Now, here comes a Christian saying, “hey, Christians aren’t perfect, and we don’t claim to be”. And this makes us arrogant? Some days you just can’t win . . .[/QUOTE] It’s not the “perfect” crack that is arrogant. It’s the “forgiven” crack. The whole thing is just the “my invisible friend is better than your invisible friend” BS, it’s just stated differently. It’s arrogant. Not to mention completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/97 "2005-06-07T01:13:05Z")
**Talon Karrde** > [@](#): > > Heck, that bumper sticker isn’t nearly as bad as what I once heard on the radio. My dad listens to a radio show by a guy named John MacArthur, and I was in the car with him and the intro to the radio show came on, with a guy saying something to the effect of “While Christians may not be sinless, it’s true that they do sin less than other people.” Whenever xtians spout off like this I’ll answer with “Guess they didn’t read the bumper sticker.” But I don’t take offense to said sticker. I think it’s just Madison Avenue, kitschy, trying to be clever wording. The bad taste is unintended. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/98 "2005-06-07T01:22:14Z")
**pravnik** > [@](#): > > …grace is a gift from God, wholly undeserved by any human deed. How about running into a burning building to save children? Donating organs after death? On and on… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/99 "2005-06-07T02:32:10Z")
Personally, I think all bumper-stickers are smug and condescending. I mean, what are you trying to accomplish by putting one on your car? Either you wish to identify with an opinion or group thereby alienating yourself to those who hold the opposite position or you are like me and put things on your car just to piss people off. Either way, what is accomplished? This jerk-off with the Christian bumper-sticker probably thinks that the world is crawling with sinners and that he or she is going to heaven because they identify (that’s right, identify and not act like) with being a true Christian. I don’t imagine Christ would read what was on your car but would judge your actions in life. Laugh at them next time because they are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/100 "2005-06-07T02:40:55Z")
My problem with these words and the message they convey has to do with my understanding of how God deals with us. In essence, I don’t believe in the eternal security of the believer ('once saved, always saved") not least because the Bible taken _in toto_ doesn’t appear to support such a stance. We are made right with God through our faith in Jesus, or indeed through the faithfulness _of_ Jesus (who knows? perhaps a bit of both), but this doesn’t count for much unless we go on to show how much we’ve changed by producing the goods in our words and, most importantly, in our actions. We are in a very real sense, as the Bible puts it, co-workers with God. He’s done his bit. We have to do ours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=6)