# Christians aren't perfect...Just forgiven. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123 "2005-06-06T13:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/101 "2005-06-07T02:44:57Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **pravnik** > > How about running into a burning building to save children? > Donating organs after death? > On and on… > > :rolleyes: I don’t understand this post. Are you intimating that the listed deeds should be sufficient to earn salvation? That’s not how it works in most Christian denominations; **pravnik** is right. If that’s not it - what exactly are you saying? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/102 "2005-06-07T02:54:25Z")
I grew up and still live in an area where the predominant Christianity is very much the flavor of the “once saved, always saved, it’s what you believe, not what you do that matters” train of thought. And that bumper sticker has always been very popular here. And it is quite well understood that the meaning (for the vast majority of locals anyway) is “only thru the True Brand of Christianity (ours) can you be forgiven”. So when I see one of my kin (nearly everybody in the area is at least an 8th cousin) with the bumper sticker, I can be pretty sure what they mean by it, and I do find it mildly annoying. But it’s no biggie. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/103 "2005-06-07T03:01:47Z")
Feh. Which color of magnetic ribbon do I get to say “I’m against ambiguous bumper stickers”? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/104 "2005-06-07T03:05:17Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Feh. > > Which color of magnetic ribbon do I get to say “I’m against ambiguous bumper stickers”? 😕 You draw a ribbon in the layer of dirt. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/105 "2005-06-07T03:10:53Z")
**Slacker** > [@](#): > > Are you intimating that the listed deeds should be sufficient to earn salvation? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Barely\_Adequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Barely\_Adequate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barely_Adequate)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/106 "2005-06-07T03:12:33Z")
> [@furt](#): > > How about “I was dead guilty, but the judge vacated the sentance.” Does saying that make me arrogant? Saying it? Probably not. When you feel the need to go the route of bumper-stickers and/or posters on your front lawn, you’ve reached the “arrrogant” level. Many Christians would do well to avail themselves of some class and taste in addition to their other virtues. -Richard ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/107 "2005-06-07T03:23:41Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **pravnik** > > How about running into a burning building to save children? > Donating organs after death? > On and on… Donating organs after death is deserving of grace? I am deserving of grace just by checking the ‘organ donor’ box on my liscense? Kewl! > [@](#): > > _posted by_\* Lib\*\*\* > > But it didn’t say that only Christians are forgiven. Why do you insist on reading that into it? All due respect, **Lib** , but I believe that IS the message that the bumper sticker is trying to convey. Something about Jesus being the only route to salvation. In my early years (in the church), they hammered that message into us pretty hard. But hey, maybe it’s just a Pentacostal thing? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/108 "2005-06-07T03:28:11Z")
Interesting, **Slacker**. I have read that early Christians drew the sign of the fish in the dirt when talking with strangers as a sort of secret sign to show that they were Christians. I don’t care for religious bumper stickers, but as **Anaamika** said: > [@](#): > > : …If I’m not qualified to state my own opinion, then who is? I see no reason to get defensive and sarcastic. I think that goes for bumper stickers as well as posts. **Lib** , about that t-shirt link: Yes, it certainly generalizes. I choose not to let it get to me. (Sometimes I’m better at being able to stick to my choice than at other times. KnowhutImean?) ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/109 "2005-06-07T03:35:38Z")
Slight hijack… My answer to the bumper sticker in the OP: The one my dad saw years ago and still can’t get over: _ **Jesus saves, but Moses invests.** _ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/110 "2005-06-07T10:35:32Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Inter **Lib** , about that t-shirt link: Yes, it certainly generalizes. I choose not to let it get to me. (Sometimes I’m better at being able to stick to my choice than at other times. KnowhutImean?) It does seem to me that the atheists-online tee shirt (also available in a bumper sticker) is unambiguously designed to taunt. It says nothing about atheists, but only about people who are born again. Nor is a bumper sticker mentality the sole province of believers. The “brights” are atheists on a PR mission, and one thing they tout about the term is that it is “bumper sticker ready”. ([Cite](http://www.teachingaboutreligion.com/the_brights.htm).) I guess it’s the internal dialog of those who take offense from the OP’s sticker that I have trouble conceiving. On the one hand, they seem to take offense at the perceived implication that they are not forgiven; on the other hand, they don’t want to be forgiven, or believe that they have nothing to be forgiven for. How can it be both ways? It’s almost like the kid who hates liquorice, but because his friend got some, he wants some too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/111 "2005-06-07T11:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > On the one hand, they seem to take offense at the perceived implication that they are not forgiven; on the other hand, they don’t want to be forgiven, or believe that they have nothing to be forgiven for. How can it be both ways? It’s almost like the kid who hates liquorice, but because his friend got some, he wants some too. Come on, this is real simple. Even if someone doesn’t believe in ‘salvation’ or what have you, the implication that you will be goin’ to hell while they’re dancin’ on clouds is somewhat… harsh. Madeup religion guy: “Say, it’s nice to know that you’re a cool guy and such, but when I die I’m going to Great Rock Candy Mountain, and you’ll go to the Lake of Schmootz.” Atheist dude: “Well, I don’t really believe in your dogma, but man that’s a sucky thing to say.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/112 "2005-06-07T11:19:52Z")
Finn, with all due respect, I do realize that you don’t intend to be smarmy and insulting, and you have engaged me before to stress that you would like to get along. Beginning a dialog with me with the words, “Come on, this is real simple”, is not conducive to that end. You speak of implications of bumper stickers daming people to hell. Do you not see the implication that you have called me stupid? Anyway, I don’t think the sticker says anything like what your Madeup religion guy says. Rather, it says, “I fall far short of the demands of my Savior [Christians aren’t perfect], but in His graciousness, He forgives my shortcomings [just forgiven].” ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/113 "2005-06-07T11:25:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The “brights” are atheists on a PR mission, and one thing they tout about the term is that it is “bumper sticker ready”. ([Cite](http://www.teachingaboutreligion.com/the_brights.htm).) Wow. Something about the name “Brights” screams “Super Special Friends Club.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/114 "2005-06-07T11:30:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Do you not see the implication that you have called me stupid? I didn’t see that implication and I didn’t understand that to be my implication and I’d rather you didn’t take it that way, because that’s not the implication. It _is_ a simple situation **Lib** , but even smart guys sometimes miss simple answers. If we’re to play the offense game, I could as easily say that a picture which paints me as equal to some whiney kid asking after candy once his friend has it is somewhat… less than accurate. But it’s really not worth the emotional energy, ya know? > [@Liberal](#): > > Anyway, I don’t think the sticker says anything like what your Madeup religion guy says. Rather, it says, “I fall far short of the demands of my Savior [Christians aren’t perfect], but in His graciousness, He forgives my shortcomings [just forgiven].” And I understand that’s a valid interpretation of the bumper sticker. But some people in the thread have also pointed out situations in which they knew people who meant it exactly as a slur against those who didn’t share the same faith. A sticker which said “People aren’t perfect, but they’re forgiven.” would seem to motivate quite different emotional energy than one that said “Jews: We’re the Chosen People.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/115 "2005-06-07T11:30:54Z")
Bumper-stickers as modern indulgences. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/116 "2005-06-07T11:38:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I didn’t see that implication and I didn’t understand that to be my implication and I’d rather you didn’t take it that way, because that’s not the implication. It _is_ a simple situation **Lib** , but even smart guys sometimes miss simple answers. > > If we’re to play the offense game, I could as easily say that a picture which paints me as equal to some whiney kid asking after candy once his friend has it is somewhat… less than accurate. But it’s really not worth the emotional energy, ya know? And yet, you can take from a bumper sticker which says nothing at all about you, that it is indeed about you and your damnation? > [@](#): > > And I understand that’s a valid interpretation of the bumper sticker. But some people in the thread have also pointed out situations in which they knew people who meant it exactly as a slur against those who didn’t share the same faith. > > A sticker which said “People aren’t perfect, but they’re forgiven.” would seem to motivate quite different emotional energy than one that said “Jews: We’re the Chosen People.” I don’t see why offense couldn’t be taken from “People aren’t perfect, but they’re forgiven”. Why couldn’t someone say that the remark about forgiveness implies a guilt that they don’t believe that bear? Is there anything on earth easier to find than offense? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/117 "2005-06-07T11:43:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And yet, you can take from a bumper sticker which says nothing at all about you, that it is indeed about you and your damnation? Naw the bumper sticker doesn’t really matter to me one way or another, but I can understand how it’d be interpreted that way. > [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t see why offense couldn’t be taken from “People aren’t perfect, but they’re forgiven”. Why couldn’t someone say that the remark about forgiveness implies a guilt that they don’t believe that bear? Is there anything on earth easier to find than offense? Probably not. Personally I figure that we could end part of the problem by not advertising our views via bumper stickers, but maybe that’s just me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/118 "2005-06-07T12:10:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The “brights” are atheists on a PR mission… See, this and the T-shirt thing are part of why atheists are soooo annoying. They’re constantly flaunting their atheism, with bumper stickers, T-shirts, billboards etc., going door to door, starting radio and TV stations, attempting to force us to fund their schools, building giant temples to their dogma, putting their slogans in our public institutions and on the currency, trying to enshrine their nasty little atheist beliefs in law and so on. You can hardly turn around without some atheist wagging his finger in your face and telling you what you can believe. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/119 "2005-06-07T12:30:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I guess it’s the internal dialog of those who take offense from the OP’s sticker that I have trouble conceiving. On the one hand, they seem to take offense at the perceived implication that they are not forgiven; on the other hand, they don’t want to be forgiven, or believe that they have nothing to be forgiven for. How can it be both ways? It’s almost like the kid who hates liquorice, but because his friend got some, he wants some too. To me, the bumper sticker isn’t worrisome because someone somewhere thinks I might be going to hell. The bumper sticker is worrisome because it speaks for God. People who think they speak for God are scary. “Christians aren’t perfect, they just pray to be forgiven” would be a bumper sticker I would never quibble over. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123/120 "2005-06-07T12:54:39Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > See, this and the T-shirt thing are part of why atheists are soooo annoying. > > They’re constantly flaunting their atheism, with bumper stickers, T-shirts, billboards etc., going door to door, starting radio and TV stations, attempting to force us to fund their schools, building giant temples to their dogma, putting their slogans in our public institutions and on the currency, trying to enshrine their nasty little atheist beliefs in law and so on. **You can hardly turn around without some atheist wagging his finger in your face and telling you what you can believe**. Hee. The sarcasm would be even more delicious if we weren’t on the SDMB, where the statement comes close to reflecting reality. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-arent-perfect-just-forgiven/307123.md?page=7)