# Christians, do you think the Church is doing the will of God (abortion) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525 "2009-03-06T14:21:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/41 "2009-03-07T15:54:42Z")
Thanks, **Stratocaster** , I was wondering if there might be something like that going on. But if the mother’s life is not in danger to the degree necessary to allow abortion, then ISTM the Church is being consistent - rape is not a justification for abortion if you consider the fetus as a separate human life. You can’t kill an innocent life because of something its father did. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/42 "2009-03-07T16:29:50Z")
You’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/43 "2009-03-07T19:20:11Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > No. We are talking about God’s will against all abortion for any reason. A non-viable embryo is ejected by God’s spontaneous abortion system. A choice not permitted even to save the life of the nine year old, if the choice is made by the woman or the girl in question. If God is so opposed to **all** abortions he never would have invented miscarriages which are in some cases “designed” to save the woman’s life from a fatal pregnancy. God has devised a natural means by which the sick and elderly shall shuffle off this mortal coil when their time has come. He (and Man) in general disapproves of any attempt to expedite this through, say, the judicious application of a feather pillow to the sleeping face. This analogy any use to you? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/44 "2009-03-07T21:14:10Z")
Part of the reason I say that they are choosing to take a stand on abortion above all else is that I don’t see the RCC excommunicating judges such as [Sharon Keller](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/us/08judge.html?hp) who are involved in death penalty cases. I bring her up because her words on finality and actions which are bringing her under scrutiny show a disregard for justice and the sanctity of life. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/45 "2009-03-07T21:24:57Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Part of the reason I say that they are choosing to take a stand on abortion above all else is that I don’t see the RCC excommunicating judges such as [Sharon Keller](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/us/08judge.html?hp) who are involved in death penalty cases. I bring her up because her words on finality and actions which are bringing her under scrutiny show a disregard for justice and the sanctity of life. Maybe so. But they aren’t actions, like some, that by definition automatically invoke excommunication under canon law by virtue of their unambiguous evil (trying to clarify, not to preach). A judge can sentence someone to death, for example, and that act, by definition, is not de facto cause for excommunication. A judge who declared a sentence of death to be based on her complete rejection of the RCC’s teachings on the sanctity of life might see a different outcome. But in any event, the fact that this judge has not been excommunicated does not mean her acts are sanctioned by the church. There are some vile acts, stuff the church really, really frowns upon, that do not lead to automatic excommunication. These are some pretty arcane canonical distinctions, but they don’t mean “all acts that do NOT lead to automatic excommunication are A-okay.” It seems as if that’s what you’re inferring. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/46 "2009-03-07T22:30:11Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Part of the reason I say that they are choosing to take a stand on abortion above all else is that I don’t see the RCC excommunicating judges such as [Sharon Keller](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/us/08judge.html?hp) who are involved in death penalty cases. Okay, so you’ve cited one supposed offense (levelling the death penalty) that you believe the Catholic Church to be ignoring. How does this logically imply that the Catholic Church is holding abortion above every and all other sins? It seems to me that there’s a rather large logical gap there. Moreover, as **Stratocaster** correctly pointed out, the actions of this judge do not mean that the Catholic Church is upholding her actions. In addition, it could very well be that the church simply is not prepared to tackle this particular case – possibly because the Magisterium feels that it needs to learn more about the particulars of this case in order to avoid shooting from the hip. Heck, it could simply be because the church does not have the time or resources to tackle every single case of grave political or judicial malfeasance, of which there are many. Again, I say these things as a non-Catholic. A non-Catholic who believes in treating such issues fairly, whether they involve Protestants or Catholics, Christians or non-Christians, conservatives or liberals, or theists or non-theists. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/47 "2009-03-08T06:08:02Z")
According to a well cited [article in wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae) a woman procuring an abortion is the only person subject to _Latae sententiae_ aka automatic excommunication for a reason that has nothing directly to do with the church. All the others involve something or someone specifically religious, from heresy to a physical assault on the pope. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/48 "2009-03-08T11:33:22Z")
Abortion has nothing to do with the church? Anyway, you seem to continue to believe that only those matters subject to automatic excommunication are considered grave sins. They are, in theory, sins that can only and unambiguously be construed as a deliberate rejection of church law. There is also [excommunication _ab homine_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm), which occurs by ruling (also categorized as ferendae sententiae). People excommunicated thusly are no less excommunicated, really. This is a canonical distinction, frankly, that I would think uninteresting to most _Catholics_. I’ll grant you that what is subject to ferendae sententiae versus latae sententiae may be fine distinctions, but in either event, the subject is just as excommunicated. Also from that cite (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion – exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, **being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness**. So, this may seem counter-intuitive to you, but between two people who have committed a grave sin, the one who is excommunicated has been done the greater favor–it has been made clear to him that repentance is required. Not trying to convert you, just pointing out that your fascination with this subset of canon law is more complicated than “some things get you automatically excommunicated, some don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/49 "2009-03-08T12:37:03Z")
> [@lee](#): > > What do you think guides the Church’s will in this case? What purpose are they serving by condemning those involved in securing and performing the abortion over and above condemning the one who caused the pregnancy in the child? Things that effectively self-perpetuate continue, things that don’t do not. The RCC is a system that self perpetuates effectively. The single most effective means the RCC has for self perpetuating is childbirth, since comparatively few become catholic by any other means. This is not to say that the hierarchy made a deliberate decision to base their anti-abortion views on what would make the RCC grow. Rather, there are a lot of possible rules. The church that happens to have the rules that best make it self perpetuate will best self-perpetuate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/50 "2009-03-08T13:07:42Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > But that’s the point of excommunication–to inspire a look at the truth and how they have turned from it. And it’s not something the men of the church do, it’s something a person does to themself. Paul handed over some to Satan, to be taught not to blaspheme (I assume against the Holy Spirit), this however is God Himself acting through Paul IMHO. It is a point where someone’s calling is so badly ignored that they are being useless to God. God then allows Satan to ruin their life (note: Job was handed over to Satan). This is the closest thing to ex-com in the NT. This only is for Holy Spirit filled believers. This seems to be the only form of ‘ex-com’ that is for believers. Besides that is Paul’s anointing, and has never been claimed by the RCC AFAIK, they claim Peter’s anointing - the keys to the Kingdom. Though that claim is man made and not of God IMHO. As such they don’t even have the authority to hand over to Satan. The OT rules allow a form of ex-com for rules violation, excluding from worship, till they are made clean. This is the ex-com the RCC is using against these people, it is however what Jesus came to set us free from. For those in Christ, the law is nailed to a tree, so no man can condemn them, and especially the church should not condemn them using OT rules. So IMHO is the RCC that is enforcing OT rules that should not apply to those under Christ. As such they are doing it themselves as man, and will incur the consequences upon themselves as you reap what you sow. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/51 "2009-03-08T13:16:10Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Square that with this case. Was it a sin to end this pregnancy, the result of the most odious of crimes, when all medical authorities said that the most likely outcome of an attempt to carry this pregnancy to term was the death of the small girl involved? Murder is a fairly huge sin as well, if two men were holding this little girl at knifepoint, would killing them have been a sin? IMHO abortion is a more heinous sin against humanity then murder, as it is the refusal to acknowledge the humanity of another and disposing of them like trash. As a society we reap what we sow, and we do have very many people who are treated like trash. As for your question, we run into circumstances where one must die so that another must live. The difference in abortion is the ignoring the humanity of the baby. That is a person and should be acknowledged as a person, a member of the human family. > [@](#): > > Does one automatically excommunicate themselves by committing murder? Do priests/bishops make a point to make public statements about the excommunicated status of Catholics who are convicted of murder within their diocese? I’m not for ex-com at all, it is based on the OT law that Jesus sets us free of. > [@](#): > > Has this little girl’s evil molesting father been excommunicated? > > If there’s been a statement that the mother and doctors have excommunicated themselves I’d think that they’d make it a point to mention the father, but thus far I can find no statement whatsoever from the RCC officials involved in this which mention that the father is similarly outside of a state of grace or good standing with the church or whatever. It makes a fairly compelling case that the RCC cares more about fetuses than an existing, victimized, multiply-traumatized child. > > Even if that’s doctrine, it’s really awful PR. AFAIK only the people who preformed the abortion of the baby were ex-com’ed, mother and father of that child were not ex-com’ed. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/52 "2009-03-08T18:28:58Z")
From the article linked in the OP: > [@](#): > > Now a Church spokesman says all those involved, including the child’s mother and the doctors, are to be excommunicated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/53 "2009-03-08T19:16:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t think it is the will of God to ex-com them, using the standard of WWJD (what would Jesus do)… Lets employ that standard to determine the will of God . First, Jesus is God. Right? What does God do? Well, [33% of known pregnancies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage) are aborted by God’s hand. The atheists call them spontaneous abortions because they do not recognize God’s hand. Given that in 2000,[the highest annual abortion rate on record using Canada as an example](http://www.webhart.net/vandee/abortstat.shtml), there were 32.2 abortions for every live birth, or 24% of pregnancies that God spared. We haven’t fully lived up to His example yet. If God smites some of the fetuses, does that make Him a bad God ? Well, only if you assume fetuses have a soul. Good News. The bible says our names are written in heaven. Ever heard of a fetus with a name ? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/54 "2009-03-08T20:13:35Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Lets employ that standard to determine the will of God . > > First, Jesus is God. Right? > > What does God do? > > Well, [33% of known pregnancies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage) are aborted by God’s hand. The atheists call them spontaneous abortions because they do not recognize God’s hand. > > Given that in 2000,[the highest annual abortion rate on record using Canada as an example](http://www.webhart.net/vandee/abortstat.shtml), there were 32.2 abortions for every live birth, or 24% of pregnancies that God spared. We haven’t fully lived up to His example yet. > > If God smites some of the fetuses, does that make Him a bad God ? Does God smite some fetuses, probably, but a miscarriage or stillborn does not necessarily mean that God ordered the death, but He could have allowed it. We are formed spiritually at that point. and may have made choices about what type of life we will have, which may have ended it. > [@](#): > > Well, only if you assume fetuses have a soul. > > Good News. > > The bible says our names are written in heaven. > > Ever heard of a fetus with a name ? Actually yes I have. Also it is written that God can give us a name, and for some people He states He will. We can see this as God changed some names, Saul/Paul, Abram/Abraham, Isac/Israel etc. Along with God naming some of His children in the womb (Jesus, John the baptist). Also to mention that God states fetal children are capable of recognizing each other while both are in different wombs. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/55 "2009-03-08T21:18:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also to mention that God states fetal children are capable of recognizing each other while both are in different wombs. Ok, this one i’d like to see the cite for, if that’s ok. It sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/56 "2009-03-08T22:16:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Ok, this one i’d like to see the cite for, if that’s ok. It sounds interesting. Isn’t this about John and Jesus? I thought I recall that from the gospel. And I named my daughter a day before the positive pregnancy test, but I thought there was a tradition kept by Jews at least to not name children until they are born. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/57 "2009-03-08T22:20:46Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Isn’t this about John and Jesus? I thought I recall that from the gospel. And I named my daughter a day before the positive pregnancy test, but I thought there was a tradition kept by Jews at least to not name children until they are born. Yes, when Mary at three months visited Elizabeth near term. I don’t believe there are too many other documented instances though, and I’d beware of generalising too freely from this instance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/58 "2009-03-08T23:08:20Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Ok, this one i’d like to see the cite for, if that’s ok. It sounds interesting. Here is the verses I was referring to: [QUOTE=Luke 1:41] When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/59 "2009-03-09T09:59:46Z")
Yeah, I think i’d have to echo others and say that seems a bit too iffy to generalise from - if nothing else, it doesn’t seem particularly safe to assume that what goes for those particular people goes for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525/60 "2009-03-10T12:32:33Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Yeah, I think i’d have to echo others and say that seems a bit too iffy to generalise from - if nothing else, it doesn’t seem particularly safe to assume that what goes for those particular people goes for the rest of us. Here are 2 related verses that goes to recognition of each other pre-birth, though this in in the same womb: [QUOTE=Gen 25:22] The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23 The LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hosea 12:3] In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. [/QUOTE] Here are some more verses about life in the womb: > [@](#): > > Psalm 22:10 > From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God. > [@](#): > > Psalm 58:3 > Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-do-you-think-the-church-is-doing-the-will-of-god-abortion/488525.md?page=4)