Huh? Am I defending them? I think NOT. I’ve been consistent in my position - feel free to check on me if you want - their “decision” is wrong. I don’t pretend to defend it. I was born and raised Catholic, and I say they were wrong. I iimagine there would be others saying the same thing. We do not have a hive mind, and there is no giant spider living in the basement.
Some of us have over the years, walked away. The standard and pat answers were just wrong.
So there.
I think he meant you can’t judge all CatholiCS by what the Pope and his crew say. :rolleyes:
You know what they say about generalizations and all that.
Are you are admitting you don’t know or are you are telling me that God allows preborn babies to commit suicide ?
Actually, God or His angel requested those two names prior to conception in these highly unusual cases but they weren’t actually named until eight days after birth. This is not just a minor point. There was some minor controversy in naming the Baptist John yet Luke thought it was significant enough to report it.
That’s a stretch. Sounds to me like Luke is merely reporting a loving joyful motherly interpretation of a fetal kick. After all, John the Baptist didn’t perform any other miracles did he?
I think I can safely say that this is one of the most heartlest statements I’ve heard from you yet. You do realize that there are posters here who HAVE had miscarriages and/or stillborns?
Please, I’m under the assumption you haven’t suffered a spontaneous abortion, but if you have, you have my heartfelt condolences.
However, this is GD and if Kanicbird is called upon to justify God’s hand in abortions this divine heartless explanation is the best she can honestly come up with.
Besides, I don’t know how we can debate abortion and choice without upsetting women who’ve made the awesome decision to abort with great difficulty and under difficult circumstances. I’m sure that there are posters in that category as well.
Abortion is a horrible procedure that is designed to torment women, along with cut off her children from the human family. Any guilt or anger that comes up is a result of the sin of abortion/child abandonment - not me brining it up. Every time that woman hears about abortion she bears that guilt, when she sees a infant it could also trigger it, she may try to avoid the subject, she might try to laugh over it, or use other coping methods. She is living in perpetual torment.
If you want to blame me you are hurting the women who need to be set free. You just enable her to hide her guilt or anger from herself. And in that lose connection to a part of her very self.
The only way through it is to face that pain, guilt or anger, not to hide it. To admit what she did to Jesus, repent of it (agree that what was done was wrong and won’t do that again), and if done from the heart there will be a day where she either hears the voice of Jesus or, for some, the spiritual voice of her child say ‘I forgive you’.
Only Jesus can take away the sin of abortion. No amount of self hate, no amount of anger, no amount of helping others, no amount of avoiding, no amount of denying your femininity can ever repay. That woman would be locked into a never ending cycle of trying to repay.
No I’m saying a lot goes on in the womb. We can make decisions where we are that can end our life, such as playing golf in a thunderstorm. Chances are taken, sometimes that ends a life, this can apply to the spiritual life in the womb as well, and the spiritual aspect of a fetus is not curled up inside a ball with no perceived exit.
Scriptures state we are created in the hidden places underground, and that men will return there.
IMHO It is a spiritual world, a place where out soul/spirit is. In the womb our body is in a sort of sensory deprivation state, floating in a constant temperature fluid in a dark, sightless environment. So even though we have a body/mind which is of the physical world, not much information is coming through that, so we stay in the soul/spirit mainly.
At birth our physical senses of mind/body overwhelm the soul/spirit and we start to lose connection to the spiritual. Later adults try to convince us that what remains that we can perceive of the spiritual doesn’t exist, and ‘brainwash’ us to ignore our soul/spirit and be grounded in mind/body.
Some rediscover the soul/spirit through meditation or other means later and reconnect with that aspect of themselves.
Calm down. I wasn’t claiming a broad generalization was an absolute truth for all pro lifers. I know there are those who give their time and energy to do positive work. Feel free to share any positive stories you have. I see pro lifers outside the clinic across from my apartment almost every weekend. At least the ones I’ve seen in the last few months aren’t carrying the large signs with grisly pictures as the previous ones did.
IMO if someone decides they are truly concerned about the "babies" of this country there are more productive things to do than spend Saturday outside a clinic. Offering a real viable alternative to abortion seems positive. Provide funding, shelter, real counseling, connections to adoption services, whatever it takes. More than that there are already born babies and other children is desperate need of someone's sincere concern and efforts. Do we encourage people to have children only to say "God Bless" without offering more practical answers to serious problems. The other thing I could never understand is how pro lifers could support Bush just because he claimed to be a Christian and took a stance against abortion while with real actions he contributed to the death and suffering of thousands of children.I think this is to incoherent and out there to even warrant a response. You’re saying the way to help neglected and unwanted children that are already born is to work to make sure more children are born. I think that’s the exact opposite of a real solution.
I was speaking of the Biblical passage I quoted. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
He clearly pointed out Biblical passages that described God being rather casual about the lives and suffering of children. It doesn’t mean much to me since I don’t hold the Bible as the Word of God. For those quote it to “prove” what God’s will is concerning abortion it’s a serious question.
I reject your description of abortion. In a common sense view I doubt that women choose abortion that cold heartedly. I think God gave us choices. Our medical choices are vastly different now than they were in the past.
Wow. That’s the first time I’ve seen pro-life being described as the feminist point of view.
I am calm. And a broad generalization is bad enough and, again, unfounded. You’re conceding there may be exceptions to your “broad generalization”? Wow, how generous of you.
Again, you’re begging the question. Why do you assume that pro-lifers as a group generally don’t support such services and alternatives? Catholic support services alone are enormous, and they certainly don’t have a monopoly on it. So, you basically came in here and restated your position. You are “broadly generalizing” that pro-lifers care only for the unborn and are uncommitted to providing support for mothers or alternatives to abortion. Am I getting this right?
Or are you just asserting that there are at least *some *pro-lifers who are inconsistent in this regard? If so, (1) that’s not what you said, but okay, and (2)it’s not very insightful to point out that “in my experience, at least some people–not sure how many–in [pick any group you can possibly think of] don’t consistently apply their beliefs.”
There are ways of justifying God’s hand in abortion without telling people that their miscarriages or stillbirths happened because God saw that their child was evil, (or “made certain choices” whatever the hell that means), and so he let that child die?
And no, fortunately I have never had a miscarriage, a stillbirth, or an abortion-I’ve never even been pregnant.
But if that is what kanicbird honestly believes, then making up other justifications (or presenting them as though they are what you believe primarily) isn’t a good thing to do. Certainly, I would argue that were one to say this in person to someone during your average conversation might be a bad idea - but this is GD. That someone may have a view which is unpleasant to some, they should what, not talk about it, even in a situation where such truths are asked for and supposedly treated on their merits?
Well, miscarriages, I’ll grant you-as they are, as already noted, spontaneous abortions. Stillbirths, however, are a completely different animal. I do not feel that is in the same league.
In the sense of we reap what we sow, or if you prefer Karma, it can’t be any other way.
The pain you inflict on others will come back to you.
If you make a decision to hand over one of your children to death, and if this happens as a decision before you were born, your life will be set up to inflict that damage on you to decide to abort your child.
I have notices some women haunted by the cry of unborn life hear that cry and bear the guilt of abortion before they have the abortion. People suddely accuse them of murder of their child, mainly by acting like they know that this women did it, without saying it.
Yes I agree in a worldly point of view it don’t make any sense. But in my experience the way of the world is the direct opposite of God’s way (the way things really are).
The death of Jesus is one aspect, the people were expecting a mighty warrior to save them, instead is this guy who love them so much that He died for them.
OKay, I admit that my feelings on this are based on just a few conservatives I know and the folks who stand outside the clinic across from my apartment. I shouldn’t draw knee jerk conclusions from that. I won’t repeat it without more information.
I did a search and found several cites for right to life groups.
I found this site which has links to several others. These sites offer counseling and adoption references. I checked their links to other sites and saw more of the same. I only saw one or two references that may have offered financial support.
So, fight my ignorance and show me the ones that offer practical services such as financial support for medical, housing, free childcare, things like that. When you want to stop abortions then that’s advocating a lot of babies that will have needs for quite a few years.
BTW, I know there are a lot of fine Catholic charities. That’s great. I’m glad they’re helping some people. They’re also taking a stance on contraception that is pretty archaic among other things. I also saw this site that seemed to be praising GWBs anto abortion record with no comment about the 1000s of children that were killed, maimed, or made orphans by his irresponsible war. Maybe it’s just me but I just don’t get that.
And let’s not forget abstinence only “education”-basically refusing to teach teenagers about proper birth control. Which only makes abortion that much more likely. (BTW, outlawing it isn’t going to stop it-it’s only going to make it THAT much more dangerous.)
[quote=“kanicbird, post:96, topic:488525”]
In the sense of we reap what we sow, or if you prefer Karma, it can’t be any other way.
The pain you inflict on others will come back to you.
If you make a decision to hand over one of your children to death, and if this happens as a decision before you were born, your life will be set up to inflict that damage on you to decide to abort your child.
I have notices some women haunted by the cry of unborn life hear that cry and bear the guilt of abortion before they have the abortion. People suddely accuse them of murder of their child, mainly by acting like they know that this women did it, without saying it.
snipQUOTE]
Is there no scenario you can imagine in which giving birth might not be desirable?
What about a woman (or couple) who discovers that a baby is going to be born with multiple severe defects which cannot be repaired and, at most, the baby will live just a few hours, days, or weeks in misery until it dies? (Of course, I understand that some would want to give birth and be able to hold the child, have photos taken, and say goodbye, but I also understand why others would not want to go through this and would prefer to abort instead.)
Though we can rationalize some, my answer is IMHO no - there is no true instance ever where abortion is desirable. God states it very well when He says:
Which I believe directly speaks to abortion.
This is not to say there is no way out, as the blood of Jesus will cover abortion also, and is the only way to stop the cry of unborn life.