# Christians is it wrong to own two coats? How about luxuries? And so on... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249 "2008-02-12T04:18:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/181 "2008-02-21T15:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Rationalize your invective however you wish–elsewhere. In this Forum, you will refrain from making that claim against another poster. If you cannot find a way to do that, then do not post. [/QUOTE] With all due respect **tomndebb** the sighted man is Satan, the blind man lekatt > [@](#): > > So, first you say that there is only one god, then you continue, directly, to contradict yourself and claim that lekatt has a different god and associate that with your concept of the devil.\* There is one God, but many gods. [QUOTE=lekatt] When you are speaking to enemy spirits (whatever or whoever that might be) would please not use my name. [/QUOTE] I needed to address them specifically, so I was talking to the spirits inside you, so I used your name, if you prefer I will make it more clear in the future. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/182 "2008-02-21T16:02:35Z")
The message of Jesus has been summed up so many times is John 3:16: > [@](#): > > "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal It is the probably most quoted verse to describe the teachings of Jesus. The requirement is to “believe in Him” and no works of your own effort are part of that. **lekatt** , may the Lord Jesus bless you, and peace in Christ. kb ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/183 "2008-02-21T17:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The message of Jesus has been summed up so many times is John 3:16: It is the probably most quoted verse to describe the teachings of Jesus. The requirement is to “believe in Him” and no works of your own effort are part of that. **lekatt** , may the Lord Jesus bless you, and peace in Christ. kb [/QUOTE] Jesus did not write that verse, John did, many years after the D and R of Jesus. One can interpret it in different ways, I would think if you believed in Jesus you would follow Him and His teachings as He asks His followers to do good works. I have never been able to find where Jesus says He came to be a human sacrifice on the cross for the sins of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/184 "2008-02-21T17:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Jesus did not write that verse, John did, many years after the D and R of Jesus. One can interpret it in different ways, I would think if you believed in Jesus you would follow Him and His teachings as He asks His followers to do good works. I have never been able to find where Jesus says He came to be a human sacrifice on the cross for the sins of mankind. [/QUOTE] The closest Jesus quotes… Matthew 20:28 also Mark 10:45 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/185 "2008-02-21T18:37:38Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Jesus did not write that verse, John did, many years after the D and R of Jesus. [/QUOTE] God wrote that verse through His servant John who wrote it in submission to the Holy Spirit. [QUOTE=John 1:] 6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. …12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. [/QUOTE] In addition to what **FriarTed** cited, the entire old testament is thrown open by Jesus’ words: [QUOTE=John 5:39] You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, [/QUOTE] which bring in **Is 55:5** > [@](#): > > But he was pierced for our transgressions, > he was crushed for our iniquities; > the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, > and by his wounds we are healed. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/186 "2008-02-21T21:13:36Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] The closest Jesus quotes… Matthew 20:28 also Mark 10:45 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 26:27-28 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [/QUOTE] The problem with Bible quote interpretation is they never really say what the interpreter says they do. One has to read into the verse the desired meaning. But the biggest problem with the salvation doctrine is its unbelievability. We have God the father sending God the son to earth to be a human sacrifice to God the father for the sins of mankind. Back when sacrifices were the preferred method of appeasing the Gods this no doubt seemed logical. But doesn’t today. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/187 "2008-02-21T21:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] The problem with Bible quote interpretation is they never really say what the interpreter says they do. One has to read into the verse the desired meaning. But the biggest problem with the salvation doctrine is its unbelievability. We have God the father sending God the son to earth to be a human sacrifice to God the father for the sins of mankind. Back when sacrifices were the preferred method of appeasing the Gods this no doubt seemed logical. But doesn’t today. [/QUOTE] Agreed. I’ve never really understood how that whole sacrifice for sins thing “worked”. Why would God require a blood sacrifice for sin? And if he truly required a blood sacrifice, how could a sacrifice of himself to himself be acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/188 "2008-02-21T21:32:00Z")
Forgive me, Oh Lord, for I know not what I do. When I speak out, it is my own voice that is heard. When I do works to please You, I please myself. Although I am lifted up beyond my own self, yet I still fall. Righteousness is not in me, my Lord, but in You. Don’t follow Christians. Follow the Lord. It is your heart He will know, not the lessons you have learned from others. So, make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. Over the hearts of others, you have neither knowledge, nor authority. Our judgment is the judgment of the world, and we will pass out of that judgment when we pass out of the world. In answer to the OP, I don’t think anyone counts your coats when you get to Heaven. They sing with overwhelming joy that you are among them. Share the joy. Tris ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/189 "2008-02-21T22:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] Agreed. I’ve never really understood how that whole sacrifice for sins thing “worked”. Why would God require a blood sacrifice for sin? And if he truly required a blood sacrifice, how could a sacrifice of himself to himself be acceptable? [/QUOTE] I belief some research can be done in order to find out just when this doctrine entered the Christian church. I do know that it was not there at the beginning. It was Luther and the reformation that instilled the doctrine of faith not works leads to salvation around 1483. I once knew but have forgotten, I think it was rather recently in the history of Christianity. > **[Succeed.Net Broadband Internet and VOIP services - succeed.net](https://succeed.net/)** > > Succeed.Net provides residential and business internet, voice, hosting, and local support across Northern California. Check availability or try internet risk-free for 30 days. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/190 "2008-02-21T23:55:18Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Forgive me, Oh Lord, for I know not what I do. When I speak out, it is my own voice that is heard. When I do works to please You, I please myself. Although I am lifted up beyond my own self, yet I still fall. Righteousness is not in me, my Lord, but in You. Don’t follow Christians. Follow the Lord. It is your heart He will know, not the lessons you have learned from others. So, make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. Over the hearts of others, you have neither knowledge, nor authority. Our judgment is the judgment of the world, and we will pass out of that judgment when we pass out of the world. In answer to the OP, I don’t think anyone counts your coats when you get to Heaven. They sing with overwhelming joy that you are among them. Share the joy. Tris [/QUOTE] You tell em’ Dog. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/191 "2008-02-22T14:36:45Z")
My posts were not to destroy Christianity but to fulfill it. To bring back the core teachings of the early church which so profoundly effected mankind. It was the doctrines that split the congregation into a thousand churches and it will be the teachings of Jesus that reunite them. Constantine saw the peaceful, happy, non-complaining Christians as what he needed to people his empire and made Christianity the official religion. Not so much today. Jesus taught us to love one another, to love your neighbors, and to love your enemies. That covers everyone. This love He talked about was not for the benefit of others, or your neighbors, or your enemies. This love was for your own benefit. Then, as today, people were full of fear, all kinds of fear, of death, of being hurt, of losing their possessions, etc. When love enters, fear flees. Practicing love heals the body and the spirit. A reality test: think of someone or something you hate. Study it to find something positive to say about it. Then say positive things about the hated thing, forgive it, forgive it for causing you to hate and forgive yourself for hating. Then move on to not judging the thing, not putting your expectations upon it letting it be free from you in all ways. Do this everyday for a week. You will feel uplifted, better about yourself and the world. This is only the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/192 "2008-02-22T16:28:45Z")
> [@](#): > > The enemy has a grip on you and in the name of Jesus I rebuke and come against that enemy and spirit of the antichrist that dwells within you: Hmm, doesn’t seem to have worked. Lekatt is still saying the same thing. Maybe Jesus doesn’t read GD, perhaps you should repost in the pit. Maybe he’ll see it then. Let us know how the whole “rebuking the enemy spirit” thing works out for you, mmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/193 "2008-02-22T17:14:04Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] And if he truly required a blood sacrifice, how could a sacrifice of himself to himself be acceptable? [/QUOTE] Not sure about anything else, but as far as a sacrifice of oneself goes, it’s not all that uncommon. Odin’s supposed to have done a similar thing (and for longer, too ;)). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/194 "2008-02-23T14:13:38Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] If you saw a blind person guiding other blind people on a path that leads over a cliff, would it be judging them to warn them? If you saw a sighted man intentionally leading a blind man astray, would it be judging the blind man by rebuking the sighted man? [/QUOTE] I think the problem is there is no cliff except the one you’ve created in your mind and believe to be true. Out of love I may tell my kids or a good friend that I sincerely think they’re making a bad decision and headed in the wrong direction, but I also honor their right to choose their own path, realizing that I’ve offered them my opinion , not God’s. You seem to have deferred the responsibility of your own judgments by cloaking them in religious jargon. That type of judgment is an old story. The Pharisee’s criticized Jesus, thinking they were the authority on God’s will. I’d agree with Bob on this one. It’s sanctimony , and yes, that’s my personal judgment and opinion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/195 "2008-02-23T14:29:56Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] God wrote that verse through His servant John who wrote it in submission to the Holy Spirit. [/QUOTE] And this is a traditional Christian belief that has no solid support in the very scriptures you revere. It is a personal and group conclusion accepted and taught as truth. It also flies in the face of existing hard evidence. IMO it’s an example of Christianity , among others, clinging to tradition and dogma and preferring them to the truth. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/196 "2008-02-23T14:34:06Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] There is no such inconsistency. Faith in Jesus as Lord will cause works by the Spirit. Those works are fruit of the Spirit and not of the person. ‘I am the vine, you are the branches’. The branches bear fruit, but it is the vine that produce them. Also we can see another example in John 21 5-11. Where the disciples went fishing on their own and caught nothing (works of man), but when they listened to Jesus (obeyed in submission to the Spirit, which was already given to them), they caught so much fish that they had a hard time hauling them in, yet the nets didn’t tear - this is the work of God, a work that they could never do on their own, only because their faith allowed them to submit to the Spirit of God. [/QUOTE] I’d agree about the fruits of the spirit. We’d disagree on what constitutes fruits of the spirit. I’m reminded of an saying I’ve heard “God is the well from which all love is drawn” If God created and maintains, permeates, and rules all creation, and also sees the true intent of our hearts, then surely all true good works are ultimately from God. Jesus talks of people who do good works in order to be seen as good by other people and says, “they have their reward” but people from any religion or any culture who sincerely seek God, love and truth in their hearts or anyone who preforms an act of real charity love and compassion, must have some connection to the HS even if they’re not aware of it, or don’t name it such. > [@](#): > > Here I would diverge a bit. If we are truly transformed by the Spirit into the likeness of Christ then that would be reflected in bearing the fruit of the Spirit. It has nothing to do with man made rules, laws and traditions except to say that that part is over, repented of, turned away from. Okay. I’d stress that acts of sincere love and compassion are “in the likeness of Christ” even if if by those who don’t believe the traditional Christian beliefs about Jesus. Gandhi is an example I use. He lived the teachings of Jesus as a Hindu. Too often organized religion focuses on form, doctrine, and terminology, rather than the heartfelt spirit reflected in the actions of the individual. The image and name of Jesus and using the proper Christian language become more important than acts of true love and compassion. If someone commits an act of true charity but practices Buddhism rather than Christianity then it must not be an act of charity. It’s tragically narrow minded IMO. > [@](#): > > I would flip this around, if we are not on the right path, our works won’t bear fruit. Okay, stressing that the right path is within just as Jesus indicated the kingdom of heaven is within. It is the true intent of our heart rather than any doctrine. > [@](#): > > Yes I know you subscribe to a form of universalism, it does take a one sided view of many scriptures. An example John 14:15: > > Which can be taken: > If you love me (Jesus) then you will keep my commandments > or > Your keeping my commandments proves you love me. > > I believe your faith requires only the second interpretation, which while still valid, is the weaker of the 2, this is not the only place where you would need to do that, just the one I have handy. I can see why you might compare my beliefs to Universalism but I assure you, they have gone from a more traditional Christian belief system to where they are now from independent study and experience. I know I have much more to learn. > [@](#): > > I can assure you that I have had very little, nor tradition while learning the Word of God. Most of what has been revealed to me has been done solely by the Holy Spirit by reading the Word without any religious organizations for perhaps 95% of it. I will take your word for this. I’m curious as to how you came to have beliefs so close to many traditional Christian beliefs. Something must have influenced you. Let’s keep in mind that lots of people who don’t agree feel led by the Holy Spirit. That should also teach us something about the nature of inspiration and how the spirit interacts with us. > [@](#): > > People who are seeking will notice the fruit of the Spirit - perhaps not knowing what it is, but noticing something, but people in the world will not. OKay, IMO it is the spirit already within us calling us toward the truth and love of our spiritual nature that moves seekers to recognize those fruits of the spirit. We are God’s children and that connection exists within us. When an experience moves us the spirit calls, “this way, this way” and we choose whether or not we follow. It’s like the parable of the seeds in MAtt 13. Mark 4 and Luke 8. Luke 8:11 > [@](#): > > "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. In this case I don’t believe the word of God is the written word but it is the living word of the spirit in our hearts. > [@](#): > > When I say believer I mean fully surrendered ‘born again’ follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don’t like to use the term Christian as that gets confused with what I term secular Christianity. Non-believers can grasp a act of human love, sure, but not the Love of God. The beacon is for those who the Father is calling. I would say those who are fully surrendered must be completely Christlike. Do you know many people like that? I sure don’t. I’m talking about those who recognize and have chosen the truth and love as their guiding principles. Many may be spiritual or religious but they probably recognize their shortcomings as well and know their journey is far from over. Surrendering is a process IMO and for most people lasts our whole life. > [@](#): > > Yes the universalism, as I stated above it does require some non-standard interpretations of certain verses, and tends to dilute the Word IMO, as we have had these exchanges before It’s still something I am looking for in my readings, I am being lead away from that possibility the more I look into it, and not a place I would feel comfortable being, but am still considering it. Let’s not label it that way. I’m sharing my thoughts and beliefs with you not any denominations doctrine. I’ve done little or no studying about what Universalists believe. Interesting that you who just claimed that your own beliefs were from your own independent study rather than from some churches doctrine now use the term “non standard interpretations of certain verses” A search for truth shouldn’t give “standard interpretations” much weight should it? > [@](#): > > But they are not the same truths. One is that you have to do good works in your own effort, the other is to surrender yourself to God. IMO God alone judges the true intent of our heart. Jesus points out that saying we surrender to God doesn’t make it so. A sincere heart that seeks love and truth is doing the will of God and following Jesus , even if that individual rejects the doctrine and teachings of traditional Christianity. My advice would be that, realizing we have much more to learn. we should claim our right to determine our own path and decide where God, or truth and love, are leading us while honoring that freedom in others. I think we close off our ability to learn and “fully surrender” as you put it, if we are too certain we already know. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/197 "2008-02-24T06:27:34Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] Agreed. I’ve never really understood how that whole sacrifice for sins thing “worked”. Why would God require a blood sacrifice for sin? And if he truly required a blood sacrifice, how could a sacrifice of himself to himself be acceptable? [/QUOTE] My older brother asked me to read Leviticus saying it would help me understand the blood sacrifice of Jesus. I read it, and it only convinced me even more how misguided that particular doctrine is. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/198 "2008-02-25T15:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] My older brother asked me to read Leviticus saying it would help me understand the blood sacrifice of Jesus. I read it, and it only convinced me even more how misguided that particular doctrine is. [/QUOTE] Leviticus is in the old testament, years and years before Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/199 "2008-02-25T15:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Leviticus is in the old testament, years and years before Jesus. [/QUOTE] You don’t say!! Many Christians believe their is some connection between the laws of the Old Testament and the sacrifices commanded there and the ultimate pay for all sins sacrifice of Jesus. I think my brother was thinking that Leviticus might help me understand that connection. It didn’t. So far, I believe that Jesus was an example of what our relationship to God and each other should be. Dieing was no sacrifice if you knew a heavenly reward was waiting and physical suffering and blood cannot pay for someone else’s sins. I think it’s misguided for many Christians to focus on that rather than a personal transformation. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249/200 "2008-02-25T20:21:06Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] You don’t say!! Many Christians believe their is some connection between the laws of the Old Testament and the sacrifices commanded there and the ultimate pay for all sins sacrifice of Jesus. I think my brother was thinking that Leviticus might help me understand that connection. It didn’t. So far, I believe that Jesus was an example of what our relationship to God and each other should be. Dieing was no sacrifice if you knew a heavenly reward was waiting and physical suffering and blood cannot pay for someone else’s sins. I think it’s misguided for many Christians to focus on that rather than a personal transformation. [/QUOTE] Absolutely, but personal transformation is much harder than just saying you believe in something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-it-wrong-to-own-two-coats-how-about-luxuries-and-so-on/437249.md?page=11)