# Christians - Is there free will in heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686 "2008-02-22T03:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/41 "2008-02-24T07:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] The answer to whether the cat is dead or alive is…wait for it…here it comes…you don’t know until you look, so any answer you give until you look is useless. [/QUOTE] I think there’s a big difference between “you don’t know the answer until you look” and “the answer is not _defined_ until you look.” Who’s misusing the paradox now? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/42 "2008-02-24T08:02:18Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] I think there’s a big difference between “you don’t know the answer until you look” and “the answer is not _defined_ until you look.” Who’s misusing the paradox now? [/QUOTE] Do you really think the answer is actually undefined until you look in the box? Tell that to the cat. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/43 "2008-02-24T08:18:52Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Do you really think the answer is actually undefined until you look in the box? Tell that to the cat. [/QUOTE] You can’t tell it to the cat. That’s kind of the point. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/44 "2008-02-24T08:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] You can’t tell it to the cat. That’s kind of the point. Tris [/QUOTE] All you have to do is look at from the cat’s point of view. Let’s say we put _you_ in a box under the same conditions. Would you say that your existence is undefined until someone else looks in the box? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/45 "2008-02-24T08:26:58Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Do you really think the answer is actually undefined until you look in the box? [/QUOTE] As far as my understanding goes of the thought experiment, [yes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedinger%27s_cat) : “The concept of superposition, one of the strangest in quantum mechanics, helped provoke Schrödinger’s conjecture. Broadly stated, the superposition is the combination of all the possible positions of a subatomic particle. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the superposition only undergoes collapse into a definite state at the exact moment of quantum measurement.” If my reading of this is correct and can be confirmed by one of our physicist Dopers, will you admit that your previous statement was wrong? ETA: In your response to Tris, I think you’re allowing yourself to be confused by what Schroedinger only intended to be a thought experiment expanding the implications of quantum physics into the macro world. IOW, forget about the kitty, m’kay, and honestly address the underlying point? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/46 "2008-02-24T08:27:27Z")
**Czarcasm** has it right. > [@](#): > > One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts. > > It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a “blurred model” for representing reality. In itself it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks. [Translation of the “Cat Paradox Paper” by Erwin Schrödinger as translated by John D. Trimmer.](http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/QM/cat.html#sect5)Schrödinger was illustrating the absurdity of expanding quantum uncertainty to macrosystems by using an example that was “ridiculous” on its face. Ironically, it’s been used ever since to argue the opposite of what he was trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/47 "2008-02-24T08:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] **Czarcasm** has it right. [Translation of the “Cat Paradox Paper” by Erwin Schrödinger as translated by John D. Trimmer.](http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/QM/cat.html#sect5)Schrödinger was illustrating the absurdity of expanding quantum uncertainty to macrosystems by using an example that was “ridiculous” on its face. Ironically, it’s been used ever since to argue the opposite of what he was trying to say. [/QUOTE] So it’s absurd and ridiculous to take our understanding of logic in the macro world and try to apply it to somewhere it patently doesn’t apply. Gotcha. Doesn’t that support Tris’s argument that it’s silly to try to apply our understanding of logic to something or someplace where (if it does exist) our logic would likewise be inapplicable–something that’s by definition infinite in nature? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/48 "2008-02-24T08:53:59Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I’m confused here. Are you saying that either: 1. A billion people have first-hand knowledge about heaven, or 2. A billion people have reach consensus about the nature? If the first, who are they? If the second, who are they? If you have something else in mind, please elaborate. [/QUOTE] According to the Koran,which is believed by over a billion Muslims, there is one man who went to heaven and back and his name is Muhammad who flew from Jerusalem on the back of a buraq and visited all seven heavens before returning back to Mecca. **chowder** , are you suggesting all Muslims are nutjobs ? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/49 "2008-02-24T09:00:26Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] Doesn’t that support Tris’s argument that it’s silly to try to apply our understanding of logic to something or someplace where (if it does exist) our logic would likewise be inapplicable–something that’s by definition infinite in nature? [/QUOTE] I’m just sharing what Schrodinger said about his cat. As for saying what God didn’t say about his heaven, see post #7. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/50 "2008-02-24T09:10:17Z")
[QUOTE=TWDuke] What **chowder** said. I don’t understand how people who sincerely believe in God with a capital G can feel comfortable issuing authoritative pronouncements on his behalf. [/QUOTE] I’m with you there. In a lot of cases I think it comes down to sincere but misguided conflation of human writings and authority with the unknowable and infinite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/51 "2008-02-24T09:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] According to the Koran,which is believed by over a billion Muslims, there is one man who went to heaven and back and his name is Muhammad who flew from Jerusalem on the back of a buraq and visited all seven heavens before returning back to Mecca. **chowder** , are you suggesting all Muslims are nutjobs ? [/QUOTE] Since _you_ are citing him as a source of information about the nature of Heaven, I think a more important question is: Do _you_ think Muhammad’s answers about heaven are correct? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/52 "2008-02-24T09:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] I’m with you there. In a lot of cases I think it comes down to sincere but misguided conflation of human writings and authority with the unknowable and infinite. [/QUOTE] then maybe the answer is a very simple “I Don’t Know.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/53 "2008-02-24T12:23:29Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I have heard Christians say that there is suffering in the world in part because people have freewill. But there is not supposed to any suffering in Heaven. So is there freewill in Heaven? And if God could create a world (Heaven) where there is freewill and no suffering, why would he create this world where there is suffering if God loves everyone? [/QUOTE] yes there is free will in Heaven. see there’s a difference with people living on earth; people tend to do their “own will” which is not always in synch with God’s will… such as murder, stealing, rape, destroying another person’s reputation, and so on. In heaven, people are without sin… they are pure… the souls in heaven love God and only want to do his will…so as a result, there is no suffering there. God loves everyone so much that he gave us a free will; he is not an oppressive God where he would force us to follow his will because God is love, (make no mistake about it: his will is for us to love one another and to follow his commandments). If we followed his commandments, there would be no suffering on this earth; at least the suffering would be marginalized to an extremely low level… But mankind, having a free will, sometimes screws up and sins. Anyway, from personal experience, I find that I’m more at peace when I am following God’s will… which explains why I’m almost always in turmoil. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/54 "2008-02-24T12:40:04Z")
If there is free will in heaven why was Lucifer and the other angles thrown out? As I see it if a person has free will there should not be a punshiment, as an example: A child wants to go to the movies or somewhere and the parent says," You can go if you wish but I do not want you to go so if you do I will kill you". To me that is not free will but doing the parents will or else!! Monavis ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/55 "2008-02-24T12:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] If there is free will in heaven why was Lucifer and the other angles thrown out? As I see it if a person has free will there should not be a punshiment, as an example: A child wants to go to the movies or somewhere and the parent says," You can go if you wish but I do not want you to go so if you do I will kill you". To me that is not free will but doing the parents will or else!! Monavis [/QUOTE] Because Lucifer was acting on his free will and going against God’s will… Lucifer wanted to be God. That was his sin… There is only one God. Here is how the story goes… God told the angels that at some point in the future, he was going to have his son become man and that all the angels were to adore his son… Lucifer refused to adore Christ whom he considered to be a mere human. The whole notion of an angel having to adore a mere mortal human made him ill. So he rebelled against God. It was the sin of pride that brought down Lucifer… pride and stupidity. Lucifer and his rebel angels were sent straight to hell… a place were the absense of God renders no hope. So that’s how it went down, apparently… ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/56 "2008-02-24T12:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] If there is free will in heaven why was Lucifer and the other angles thrown out? [/quote] In Judeo-Christian theology, do angels have free will in the same sense that humans are supposed to? Somehow I got the impression that there was a difference, but I can’t remember where. Something to do with how humans have both spirit and animal nature, making them uniquely able to choose to obey or disobey vs. angels purely spiritual nature. > [@](#): > > As I see it if a person has free will there should not be a punshiment, as an example: A child wants to go to the movies or somewhere and the parent says," You can go if you wish but I do not want you to go so if you do I will kill you". To me that is not free will but doing the parents will or else!! I see it more like “as long as you live under my roof, you’ll abide by my rules.” The kid is free to choose, but not free to avoid the consequences of his choice. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/57 "2008-02-24T15:05:40Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] All you have to do is look at from the cat’s point of view. Let’s say we put _you_ in a box under the same conditions. Would you say that your existence is undefined until someone else looks in the box? [/QUOTE] An imaginary cat in an imaginary box has, at the very most, an imaginary point of view. You examine the import of Shrodinger’s cat and, while simultaneously maintaining “If the true nature of Heaven is that it is not limited by logic, then perhaps any answer given is . . . useless.” Perhaps the criteria used in categories that you find agreeable are different. ## Tris “Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty.” ~ Erwin Schrodinger ~ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/58 "2008-02-24T15:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] An imaginary cat in an imaginary box has, at the very most, an imaginary point of view. You examine the import of Shrodinger’s cat and, while simultaneously maintaining “If the true nature of Heaven is that it is not limited by logic, then perhaps any answer given is . . . useless.” Perhaps the criteria used in categories that you find agreeable are different. ## Tris “Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty.” ~ Erwin Schrodinger ~ [/QUOTE] No, it’s just a simple matter of being able to tell imagination from reality, knowing that “I don’t know” does not equal “Anything is possible”, and realizing that sometimes you just have to be willing to tell people that you think they are wrong(while being open to future evidence that _you_ may be wrong). I’m just not of the opinion that telling everyone that they might have the answers to unknowable(as yet) questions is a wise move. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/59 "2008-02-24T15:37:57Z")
Do you want a good example of what can happen if you are open to _all_ points of view about a subject? Go down to a “Psychic Fair” and see all the people that worked harmoniously to put it together. Then check it out closely to see how many of their methods and ideas conflict with each other. Because there is a “You don’t comment on my ideas, and I won’t comment on yours” approach, they will not critique each other and thus nothing of substance can be learned from each other(providing there was anything of substance there in the first place, of course.) The same goes for threads like this one. It might be “nice” to put out the belief that all ideas are equally valid, in hopes that everybody gets to feel good afterwards, but what can really be gained by such an approach? You come in with an idea, someone says “How interesting!”, and you go out with an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/60 "2008-02-24T15:45:06Z")
To boil it down, if everyone comes up with a different answer to a specific question, it is more likely that one(or even none) have the correct answer than that _all_(or even most) have the correct answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686.md?page=4)