# Christians - Is there free will in heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686 "2008-02-22T03:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/141 "2008-02-29T16:39:56Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Most experiencers do not have anesthetic, yet know they are in the presence of God. There is no need to prove it to anyone, a person knows when they experience God. [/QUOTE] If there is no need to prove it to anyone, then there is no need to tell others about it. As you do, over and over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/142 "2008-02-29T17:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] There is no need to prove it to anyone, a person knows when they experience God. [/QUOTE] This statement can be accepted as true for exactly as long as the believer believes that the person who supposedly experienced God is infallible. The instant that somebody accepts that the supposed experiencer is fallible, the statement that a person just “knows when they experience God” is obviously and laughably false. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/143 "2008-02-29T20:46:22Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] This statement can be accepted as true for exactly as long as the believer believes that the person who supposedly experienced God is infallible. The instant that somebody accepts that the supposed experiencer is fallible, the statement that a person just “knows when they experience God” is obviously and laughably false. [/QUOTE] You just made that up? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/144 "2008-02-29T20:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] If there is no need to prove it to anyone, then there is no need to tell others about it. As you do, over and over and over again. [/QUOTE] Wrong, one does not follow the other automatically. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/145 "2008-03-01T13:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Knowledge is being able to discern between reading the Bible, and not being religious. The difference between truth and doctrine, religious and spiritual, these are the things that knowledge consists of. [/QUOTE] It still comes across to me that it is belief on you part, not knowledge. The wonderful thing about belief is one is free to believe what ever their hearts desire. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/146 "2008-03-01T14:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] It still comes across to me that it is belief on you part, not knowledge. The wonderful thing about belief is one is free to believe what ever their hearts desire. Monavis [/QUOTE] Doesn’t matter how it comes across to you. It was my experience and I know it was real. So do millions of others who have had similar experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/147 "2008-03-01T18:05:44Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Doesn’t matter how it comes across to you. It was my experience and I know it was real. So do millions of others who have had similar experiences. [/QUOTE] You keep referring to millions of others who have similar experiences. Where and/or who are they, and how “similar” were their experiences to yours? Cites for both, please. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/148 "2008-03-01T18:27:55Z")
**lekatt** : Despite being asks for cites for your many claims of “millions” of people you have thus far failed to supply even one. I am of the opinion you haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re waffling on about, I also believe you don’t have any cites to give…prove me and others wrong. Go on, do it ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/149 "2008-03-01T21:34:22Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] You keep referring to millions of others who have similar experiences. Where and/or who are they, and how “similar” were their experiences to yours? Cites for both, please. [/QUOTE] Does it really matter whether there are millions or hundreds of thousands of thousands of these experiences that are very similar in the aspect of meeting God which we are talking about here. If you would read the material you would know why I say and talk about the things related to these experiences. Now I will show you links. The quote below comes from an article and study of the International Association of Near Death Studies. You will not this quote is the bottom of the article which says four percent of people in the US have had this experience, that is 12 million. Now if you want to read the whole article and I hope you do, I have provided a link. [http://www.iands.org/nde\_index/ndes/key\_facts\_about\_near-death\_experiences.html](http://www.iands.org/nde_index/ndes/key_facts_about_near-death_experiences.html) Please read, there is nothing to fear and lots to learn. > [@](#): > > A Little NDE History > > ``` > * The earliest known description of a near-death experience was recounted by Plato in his "Myth of Er," found at the end of Book X of The Republic, which was written c. 420 B.C. Accounts can be found in the folklore and writings of European, Middle Eastern, African, East Indian, East Asian, Pacific and Native American cultures.11 > * The term "near-death experience" was coined by Dr. Raymond Moody in his book Life After Life in 1975.12 > * The International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) was formed in 1981 by a group of researchers subsequent to the outpouring of requests for more information about NDEs. > > ``` > > Prevalence of NDEs > > ``` > * Surveys taken in the US13, Australia14 and Germany15 suggest that 4 to 15 % of the population have had NDEs. > * Every day in the U.S., 774 NDEs occur, according to the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF).16 > * Of more than 800 near-death experiencers (NDErs) reporting to IANDS, 25% believed they were clinically dead at the time of their NDE.17 > * A large study conducted in the Netherlands showed that 18% of people who suffered a cardiac arrest and were clinically dead had later reported an NDE.18 > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/150 "2008-03-01T21:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Does it really matter whether there are millions or hundreds of thousands of thousands of these experiences that are very similar in the aspect of meeting God which we are talking about here. [/QUOTE] Does it matter if you are stating facts or making them up as you go along? As a matter of fact, it most certainly does. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/151 "2008-03-02T01:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Does it matter if you are stating facts or making them up as you go along? As a matter of fact, it most certainly does. [/QUOTE] I never make anything up, everything I post is the truth to the best of my knowledge. What I personally experience I know is truth. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/152 "2008-03-02T05:49:56Z")
**lekatt** , I beg of you; please stop citing cites that disagree with you. I mean, there would be no problem if you cited places that agreed with you totally, though I imagine I would still disagree with them. But seriously, when you need to pick and choose from your own pro-position cites, you really need to re-examine your own personal experience, as it were. From your latest cite; > [@](#): > > One-fourth of the 800 people who have submitted their experiences to the IANDS online NDE archives reported they were not close to death or dead at the time. Instead, they were in emotionally intense situations, meditating, sleeping or in ordinary states of consciousness when this phenomenon occurred. IANDS refers to these as “near-death-like experiences” or NDLEs. Their definition of NDE does not match yours. Next time, perhaps, when enticing people to read your cites, you might yourself like to read up to, eh, the third paragraph of it or so. This would be me assuming you’re not just typing “NDE figures” into Google and then skipping down the page to the relevant part. While it may look as though i’m being mean, i’m actually assuming you acted on the best possible faith as you could have, given the circumstances. [QUOTE=lekatt] Please read, there is nothing to fear and lots to learn. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Harrowing experiences are sometimes reported involving similar common elements but with opposite emotional states—extreme fear, isolation, non-being, confusion, occasional torment or guilt. Two substantial studies have reported the percentage of these NDEs as 17% and 18%,6,7 although smaller studies have found as many as 30%8; two online NDE sites report incidences of 8.6% and 15%.9,10 > [@](#): > > In one study, 65 % of NDErs’ marriages result in divorce as opposed to 40 to 50% in the general population.61 Major changes in values62, careers (75%)63 and religious views64 contribute to stress in an NDEr’s relationships.65 > > NDErs, especially those who have suffered a distressing or frightening experience, can suffer from feelings of alienation and depression. They often avoid disclosing their experience, not wanting to risk ridicule, judgment and lack of understanding in others.66 Evidence suggests that non-disclosure of significant personal experiences increases physical and psychological stress. This stress adds to the physical and emotional challenges caused by events that originally led to the near-death experience itself.67,68 The degree to which NDErs suffer from depression or suicidal ideation linked to their NDEs is under study by IANDS. Now, I could be wrong, and I frequently am, but generally when the word “harrowing” is used to describe an experience, it - and again I specifiy this is just my reaction - it sounds like something that might just possibly cause some people to, for the lack of a better word, fear. Like I said, I could be wrong. I mean, it’s not like they use the word fear themselves. Next to “extreme”. [QUOTE=lekatt] Does it really matter whether there are millions or hundreds of thousands of thousands of these experiences that are very similar in the aspect of meeting God which we are talking about here. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Non-Western near-death research has been conducted in China, India, Thailand, Tibet, and in several native cultures in Australia, Chile, Guam, the continental U.S., New Zealand, and Hawaii. Similarities to Western NDEs are the belief that this is the afterlife, a profound sense of peace, being in an otherworldly realm, meeting deceased relatives, meeting spiritual or religious figures ( **usually in keeping with one’s cultural background** ) and to a lesser extent experiencing some type of life review. The tunnel sensation was rarely reported in non-Western cultures. My bolding. Gosh. It would appear that the similarities in meeting that particular religious figure depend upon cultural norms. Who would have guessed it? Now, I know your method of explaining this; what they’re actually experiencing is the same being, but behind a familiar, comforting mask. Hey, i’d disagree, but that’s fine. Alas, however, here you have claimed these are _similar_ experiences, and in that they are - by their own personal experience, as well as your own - not. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/153 "2008-03-02T11:33:02Z")
What I would really like to know is why after asking the question, 2.5" has , since post 104, not put in an appearance. Actually this is normal for him/her, starts a thread and then abandons it. This is considered bad form, right? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/154 "2008-03-02T12:11:03Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Doesn’t matter how it comes across to you. It was my experience and I know it was real. So do millions of others who have had similar experiences. [/QUOTE] It was your experience and in your mind that you experienced it;you may call it God if you wish. If you did not believe in God (or wanted to) your mind could create an experience. You were in a frame of mind that you apparently needed reasurance and it helped you. And yes, it was a real experience that you like to refer to as the presence of a God. If God is everywhere as some religions teach then you would always be in the presence of God even if you didn’t know it. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/155 "2008-03-02T18:06:07Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] It was your experience and in your mind that you experienced it;you may call it God if you wish. If you did not believe in God (or wanted to) your mind could create an experience. You were in a frame of mind that you apparently needed reasurance and it helped you. And yes, it was a real experience that you like to refer to as the presence of a God. If God is everywhere as some religions teach then you would always be in the presence of God even if you didn’t know it. Monavis [/QUOTE] You wouldn’t know anything about what I experienced or my frame of mind. What you say is only your opinion. Now, it is true that God is with you, around you, at all times. But you do not detect Him at all times, some people never detect Him. Being in God’s presence is intense feeling of caring and love, not to be mistaken for anything else. I know I was in the presence of God, no doubt of it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/156 "2008-03-02T18:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] **lekatt** , I beg of you; please stop citing cites that disagree with you. I mean, there would be no problem if you cited places that agreed with you totally, though I imagine I would still disagree with them. But seriously, when you need to pick and choose from your own pro-position cites, you really need to re-examine your own personal experience, as it were. From your latest cite; Their definition of NDE does not match yours. Next time, perhaps, when enticing people to read your cites, you might yourself like to read up to, eh, the third paragraph of it or so. This would be me assuming you’re not just typing “NDE figures” into Google and then skipping down the page to the relevant part. While it may look as though i’m being mean, i’m actually assuming you acted on the best possible faith as you could have, given the circumstances. Now, I could be wrong, and I frequently am, but generally when the word “harrowing” is used to describe an experience, it - and again I specifiy this is just my reaction - it sounds like something that might just possibly cause some people to, for the lack of a better word, fear. Like I said, I could be wrong. I mean, it’s not like they use the word fear themselves. Next to “extreme”. My bolding. Gosh. It would appear that the similarities in meeting that particular religious figure depend upon cultural norms. Who would have guessed it? Now, I know your method of explaining this; what they’re actually experiencing is the same being, but behind a familiar, comforting mask. Hey, i’d disagree, but that’s fine. Alas, however, here you have claimed these are _similar_ experiences, and in that they are - by their own personal experience, as well as your own - not. [/QUOTE] We were not discussing NDEs in general, we were discussing specific instances where the experiencer was in the presence of God. I posted the link to show numbers of experiences and nothing else. So you are wrong by being out of context. I know that be skeptical is cool, but it also prevents the skeptic from enjoying life to the fullest. Extreme skepticism is paranoia, not a good thing, leads to much unhappiness. This world is not divided into good and evil, it is a linear series of events. What people believe about these events make them either good or evil to the individual belief. Some have lived through sheer terror, and not been touched by it, and others fall apart at a hang nail. Your beliefs and subsequently your thoughts set the course of your life. Positive is better than negative anytime. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/157 "2008-03-03T11:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You wouldn’t know anything about what I experienced or my frame of mind. What you say is only your opinion. Now, it is true that God is with you, around you, at all times. But you do not detect Him at all times, some people never detect Him. Being in God’s presence is intense feeling of caring and love, not to be mistaken for anything else. I know I was in the presence of God, no doubt of it. [/QUOTE] It seems to me that you have a great imagination. I do think it was all in your mind and you are right I cannot read your mind but what is known can be proven. You do not offer any proof except that it was in your mind. It helps you to belive and there is nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t give anyone else a reason to believe you. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/158 "2008-03-03T19:08:25Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You just made that up? [/QUOTE] Is this supposed to be an insult? Of course I “made up” my statement; I put an obvious observation about reality into my own words. Here is my statement: > [@Me](#): > > This statement can be accepted as true for exactly as long as the believer believes that the person who supposedly experienced God is infallible. The instant that somebody accepts that the supposed experiencer is fallible, the statement that a person just “knows when they experience God” is obviously and laughably false. The reality of the situation is, if you are not infallible, then it is possible that you are wrong. This is obvious and true, by the definition of “fallible”. And, if you are capable of being wrong, then it is possible for you to be wrong when guessing the source of the mental reaction you interpret as God’s love. This is obviously true, if you’re fallible. Statements that assert otherwise _are_ obviously and laughably false. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/159 "2008-03-03T20:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Is this supposed to be an insult? Of course I “made up” my statement; I put an obvious observation about reality into my own words. Here is my statement:The reality of the situation is, if you are not infallible, then it is possible that you are wrong. This is obvious and true, by the definition of “fallible”. And, if you are capable of being wrong, then it is possible for you to be wrong when guessing the source of the mental reaction you interpret as God’s love. This is obviously true, if you’re fallible. Statements that assert otherwise _are_ obviously and laughably false. [/QUOTE] Then you are wrong also by reason of infallibility, your reasoning is circular in nature. Since I experienced first hand what I wrote about, it is only I that can say whether or not it was real, and I say it was real. I have no doubt it was real. You not being there have no say only an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686/160 "2008-03-03T20:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] It seems to me that you have a great imagination. I do think it was all in your mind and you are right I cannot read your mind but what is known can be proven. You do not offer any proof except that it was in your mind. It helps you to belive and there is nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t give anyone else a reason to believe you. Monavis [/QUOTE] There are many who do believe – those who had similar experiences. They understand what happened. Those that have not experienced may either believe or not believe as they wish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-is-there-free-will-in-heaven/438686.md?page=9)