# Christians: of what value to God is worship? \[ed. title for clarity\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662 "2007-10-31T02:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/41 "2007-10-31T21:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] Probably enough of our hijack. Want to start a new thread, **Lil**? [/QUOTE] Sure thing - [here we go](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=442357). > [@Revtim](#): > > I was more thinking along the lines of the underlining reason why any being would desire worship. Why would that cause pleasure in an omniscient/omnipotent being? I could see why it would be pleasurable for a human who, say, is insecure. I cannot think of any reason a being could derive pleasure from worship that is not at the root some kind of flaw or undesirable character trait. I think I have the same questions as you, then. Because I can understand the “love” part (e.g., even secure parents could be hurt, if their kids didn’t love them), but I’m not too sure about the “worship” part. I had never really thought much about that part, so I’m really interested in hearing others’ views on this. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/42 "2007-10-31T21:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] 😛 [/QUOTE] I don’t know if you’re aware, but DCMS grossly misrepresented my beliefs there, hopefully mistakenly rather than maliciously. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/43 "2007-10-31T22:11:21Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Anywhistle: of what value to an infinite and omnipotent Deity can the adoration and offerings of mortals be? Why would God care? [/QUOTE] It was best described to me when your spouse asks why do you love me. If you answer it’s because of your beauty, mind, or whatever, that is a conditional love, a love can end if something takes away that beauty, mind, etc. The correct answer is that I love you because I do. It’s something that can never be taken away - this is the love of God, he loves us just because, nothing else really needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/44 "2007-10-31T22:30:54Z")
To answer the OP (and for a wonder **kanicbird** and I are surprisingly close on this one): It’s not out of any value to **God** that one is expected to worship Him – it’s because of the value to the person himself. As in, you may have noticed that people tend to be egotistical, to consider the world revolves around them. (Cf. Any random selection of Pit threads for evidence thereto) Accepting that one is a creature of a Creator and that everything anyone has is in the last analysis His gift (even if earned or made by one’s own efforts, one’s health and non-handicappedness are the results of His grace). Psalm 50 is instructive in this regard: > [@YHVH](#): > > 7 "Hear, O My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. > 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before Me. > 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor hegoats out of thy folds. > 10 For every beast of the forest is Mine and the cattle upon a thousand hills. > 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains, and the wild beasts of the field are Mine. > 12 If I were hungry I would not tell thee, for the world is Mine and the fullness thereof. > 13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? > 14 “Offer unto God thanksgiving, and pay thy vows unto the Most High, > 15 and call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me.” ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/45 "2007-10-31T23:29:26Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] How is it counter factual? Such minor institutions as the Catholic church, the Orthodox church, the Anglican communion, several Lutheran synods, and any number of other Christian denominations simply do not hold that one needs to believe in the Christian view of God to be saved. I would not say that this is a _traditional_ belief, but it is the _current_ belief expressed by those faiths. [/QUOTE] I keep reading this sort of thing from theists, and they invariably leave out the most important part of (especially) the RCC´s tippytoeing around the subject: you can be saved IF YOU NEVER HEARD OF JC AND COMPANY. Period. Since there are probably about three atheists in the Western world who meet that requirement, that leaves the rest of us SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/46 "2007-10-31T23:46:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mapache] I keep reading this sort of thing from theists, and they invariably leave out the most important part of (especially) the RCC´s tippytoeing around the subject: you can be saved IF YOU NEVER HEARD OF JC AND COMPANY. Period. Since there are probably about three atheists in the Western world who meet that requirement, that leaves the rest of us SOL. [/QUOTE] Not as I understand it. My UCC minister explains it thusly: Imagine that you’re, say, a Native American whose first encounter with Christianity was the conquistadors who razed your villain, raped your daughters, and did unspeakable things to you. Much later you meet a much nicer missionary whom you, nevertheless, don’t find all that credible. But you continue to behave as morally and honorably as you can, by the teachings of persons you have met who retain credibility. God counts that as service to him, as your distrust of Christians is a long way from being your fault. That would be an extreme example, of course. But a modern atheist who honestly disbelieves in the Deity, as opposed to disbelieving out of ego or a desire to sin, and who actively searches for ways to live as moral and kind and loving a life as possible, is likely to get into the afterlife in a way that, say, Fred Phelps is not. Of course I don’t believe in the afterlife, and I’m ambivalent about God existing at all at thsi point in my life, so I’m just quoting. ---
**Author:** ![aliquot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@aliquot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliquot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/47 "2007-11-01T01:09:46Z")
[QUOTE=Revtim] I doubt that an omnipotent, omniscient being would have any desires whatsoever. I think every one of our desires has as at its root the desire for something that we lack. An omnipotent omniscient wouldn’t lack anything. [/QUOTE] I came in here to post something similar. Except I’ll go one step farther: Because God is defined as perfect, He cannot possible give two shits about our love or worship. I suppose this statement depends on the definition of the word “perfect,” so here’s my take. A perfect being is one without faults who does not, cannot lack for anything. If God is perfect except He wants a turkey sandwich that He currently does not have, He is not perfect – he’s almost perfect, and a little hungry. That’s no longer perfect. Now, if God is perfect by this definition, He cannot possibly care if I love him/worship him or not. If He did care, if He does want me to love/worship Him, I must disappoint Him, because I don’t love/worship/believe in Him. If He is disappointed, if He is lacking my freely given love (as opposed to my coerced, “I’m God and I can control your mind” love), then He is no longer perfect. He’s almost perfect, and a little disappointed. So I’m thinking one of three things is going on here: (1) He’s not perfect, merely “almost perfect,” which I think would be hard for most (all?) Christians to reconcile; (2) He’s perfect, and He’s not disappointed that I don’t love/worship him, because it’s not something He wants (in which case we’re cool with each other, AFAICT) (3) There’s a definition of the word “perfect” that solves that conundrum (some variant of “We can’t possibly understand; He’s God and we’re mortal, but somehow, He can be bummed that you don’t love Him and yet still be perfect.” My conclusion is that there is no God, and so all this theological dithering is merely mental masturbation. But just before I became an apostate, I think I drifted towards (2), and then decided it’d be easier to just admit that I sort of went along with the whole “God” thing out of peer pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/48 "2007-11-01T04:55:39Z")
[QUOTE=aliquot] I came in here to post something similar. Except I’ll go one step farther: Because God is defined as perfect, He cannot possible give two shits about our love or worship. I suppose this statement depends on the definition of the word “perfect,” so here’s my take. A perfect being is one without faults who does not, cannot lack for anything. If God is perfect except He wants a turkey sandwich that He currently does not have, He is not perfect – he’s almost perfect, and a little hungry. That’s no longer perfect. Now, if God is perfect by this definition, He cannot possibly care if I love him/worship him or not. If He did care, if He does want me to love/worship Him, I must disappoint Him, because I don’t love/worship/believe in Him. If He is disappointed, if He is lacking my freely given love (as opposed to my coerced, “I’m God and I can control your mind” love), then He is no longer perfect. He’s almost perfect, and a little disappointed. [/QUOTE] I don’t like your definition of perfection. By your definition, the fewer people I love or care about—the fewer people have any power to delight or disappoint me—the nearer perfection I am. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/49 "2007-11-01T05:24:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mapache] I keep reading this sort of thing from theists, and they invariably leave out the most important part of (especially) the RCC´s tippytoeing around the subject: you can be saved IF YOU NEVER HEARD OF JC AND COMPANY. Period. Since there are probably about three atheists in the Western world who meet that requirement, that leaves the rest of us SOL. [/QUOTE] I am always amused by people who feel the need to tell other people what they MUST believe, particularly when their opinions are based on _interpretations_ of texts. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/50 "2007-11-01T06:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] It was best described to me when your spouse asks why do you love me. If you answer it’s because of your beauty, mind, or whatever, that is a conditional love, a love can end if something takes away that beauty, mind, etc. The correct answer is that I love you because I do. It’s something that can never be taken away - this is the love of God, he loves us just because, nothing else really needs to be said. [/QUOTE] The OP is not about loving God, but why he requires acts of worship. Just because you love your spouse doesn’t mean you worship him. In any case spouses are equals whereas humans and God are not. I decry this kind of answer (which I almost invariably get) when I query various aspects of God’s character and actions; arguing by analogy with how humans would behave. I thought humans were supposed to aspire to emulate God’s behaviour, not vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/51 "2007-11-01T11:34:59Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I am always amused by people who feel the need to tell other people what they MUST believe, particularly when their opinions are based on _interpretations_ of texts. [/QUOTE] Would that include all missionaries? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/52 "2007-11-01T12:48:38Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Cite? [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7775686&postcount=69](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7775686&postcount=69) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/53 "2007-11-01T12:49:03Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Would that include all missionaries? [/QUOTE] You do, I hope, recognize the difference between a person who attempts to change one’s beliefs and a person who attempts to tell another person that they don’t really believe what they profess to believe, right? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/54 "2007-11-01T13:00:40Z")
As I studied religions most of my life I find that it was a human (or humans) that decided God wanted worship. Each person decides at one time or the other to believe or change thier beliefs. We do not know what God wants, only what another human said God wanted, that is a big difference. Most humans know it is good to treat others and the earth with kindness knowing that Good will produce good. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/55 "2007-11-01T13:32:05Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] The OP is not about loving God, but why he requires acts of worship. Just because you love your spouse doesn’t mean you worship him. In any case spouses are equals whereas humans and God are not. I decry this kind of answer (which I almost invariably get) when I query various aspects of God’s character and actions; arguing by analogy with how humans would behave. I thought humans were supposed to aspire to emulate God’s behaviour, not vice versa? [/QUOTE] OK extending this to worship. God is so so so above humans that it elevates us to worship and serve Him to a level that we can’t achieve on our own. So on our end it is to our benefit to do so. On God’s level, I’m not sure, but he takes great delight in us, and it is ‘right’ for us to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/56 "2007-11-01T13:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You do, I hope, recognize the difference between a person who attempts to change one’s beliefs and a person who attempts to tell another person that they don’t really believe what they profess to believe, right? [/QUOTE] I certainly do, but that clarification was not evident in this statement: > [@tomndebb](#): > > I am always amused by people who feel the need to tell other people what they MUST believe, particularly when their opinions are based on interpretations of texts. Maybe if you had said “…what they do(or really) believe..” I wouldn’t have misunderstood you. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/57 "2007-11-01T14:02:53Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Look up “Anonymous christian” or “anonymous christians”, or Karl Rahner, S.J. If I’m not mistaken, his writings are the basis on which the doctrine that a person doesn’t have to be Christian to be saved are established. This does bring up a good point though; Baptists and other scriptural literalists are likely to discount the anonymous christian concept because it’s not directly based in scripture. [/QUOTE] Um, you do know what the initials “S.J.” stand for, right? “Society of Jesus,” as in the JESUITS! :eek: The same monsters who started the American Civil War, killed Lincoln, and invented Communism, Mormonism, and the Council on Foreign Relations. For more I’ll refer you to the important publications by Jack Chick. Really, though, I suspect the intersection of Baptist and Jesuit theologies is, though not a null set, really, really dinky. Always liked the Jesuits. You can always bum a smoke off one. Considered joining when I was a boy. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/58 "2007-11-01T14:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7775686&postcount=69](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7775686&postcount=69) [/QUOTE] Thank you! Let’s look at what I said. "FriarTed Originally Posted by badchad So basically, you don’t think we should take Jesus’ word for it. If this were true, you’d be threatening us all with hell then, wouldn’t you. Christ did live as that, did he not? I find anyone that worships such an selfish, anti-social, genocidal god a bit reprehensible, so I guess that makes us even. My response- You know, there comes a time when even Hopeful Universalist C’tians such as myself who hope & believe that the Lake of Fire is the Purifying Presence of God do relish the thought that some hate-filled unbelievers will be peeing all over themselves & crying like little girls with skinned knees as they stand before Yahweh/Jesus for their Judgement." And now let’s look at what you said- "Don’t Call Me Shirley Aw, come on LilShieste, are you gonna deprive FriarTed of the delight of watching atheists thrown into the lake of fire? He is SO looking forward to that, you know." See any differences? 1.) I do not speak of looking forward to “atheists” arriving at their Judgement, but to “some hate-filled unbelievers”, which I think many Dopers would agree Mr. BC did qualify as. 2.) I identify myself as a Hopeful Universalist who regards the Lake of Fire as the Purifying Presence of God. 3.) Later in that thread, and some other discussions, I elaborate that I hope the end result of that encounter with Yahweh/Jesus to be reconciliatory and redemptive, and I also admit that how I expressed myself was rather unseemly. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/59 "2007-11-01T14:29:21Z")
You were right; you didn’t live it down. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662/60 "2007-11-01T15:32:08Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Thank you! Let’s look at what I said. "FriarTed Originally Posted by badchad So basically, you don’t think we should take Jesus’ word for it. If this were true, you’d be threatening us all with hell then, wouldn’t you. Christ did live as that, did he not? I find anyone that worships such an selfish, anti-social, genocidal god a bit reprehensible, so I guess that makes us even. My response- You know, there comes a time when even Hopeful Universalist C’tians such as myself who hope & believe that the Lake of Fire is the Purifying Presence of God do relish the thought that some hate-filled unbelievers will be peeing all over themselves & crying like little girls with skinned knees as they stand before Yahweh/Jesus for their Judgement." And now let’s look at what you said- "Don’t Call Me Shirley Aw, come on LilShieste, are you gonna deprive FriarTed of the delight of watching atheists thrown into the lake of fire? He is SO looking forward to that, you know." See any differences? 1.) I do not speak of looking forward to “atheists” arriving at their Judgement, but to “some hate-filled unbelievers”, which I think many Dopers would agree Mr. BC did qualify as. 2.) I identify myself as a Hopeful Universalist who regards the Lake of Fire as the Purifying Presence of God. 3.) Later in that thread, and some other discussions, I elaborate that I hope the end result of that encounter with Yahweh/Jesus to be reconciliatory and redemptive, and I also admit that how I expressed myself was rather unseemly. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. [/QUOTE] 1. I think that “atheists” is a good enough paraphrase of “hate-filled unbeliever.” You did say “some” while I may have implied “all” but that’s the only difference I see. 2. Why would the purifying presence of god make one so thristy? Cause, you know, the rich man was in the “purifying presence of god,” and he was begging for Lazarus to give him some water. 3. Good for you for admitting that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-of-what-value-to-god-is-worship-ed-title-for-clarity/424662.md?page=4)