# Christians Only: Is George W. Bush going to Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835 "2005-03-23T03:38:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/41 "2005-03-23T23:35:46Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Basically introducing a political opinion, even one that is grounded firmly in the opinions of many people on this forum doesn’t really add anything to the discussion. Kinda hard to avoid the matter when we’re talking about a political figure, ainnit? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/42 "2005-03-23T23:47:33Z")
Just out of curioiusity, for those who say or imply or wish that Bush is headed southward upon his death: Which modern presidents do you think WON’T be joining him? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/43 "2005-03-24T01:01:04Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > The problem with that is that Methodism, like most of the major Christian denominations, has a spectrum that ranges from conservatism Fund’ism to liberalism. The denomination in its greatest part might be mainline to liberal. Dubya just happens to belong to the conservative Fund’ist end of the spectrum. This is your assertion, sure, and it seems to be a popular view. But can you show me any kind of proof that Bush’s religious views are in this fringe element of methodism? You can back this up, right? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/44 "2005-03-24T01:53:08Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Puh-LEEEESE. Jesus did not say “Take from thy neighbor and feed the poor.” I think He’d say that you have an obligation to feed the poor, as does your neighbor. Taxation just happens to be an expedient means to the end. Unless and until private donations swell to unprecedented levels, this is unavoidable. > [@John Mace](#): > > Just out of curioiusity, for those who say or imply or wish that Bush is headed southward upon his death: Which modern presidents do you think WON’T be joining him? Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford both seem to be good candidates for heading the opposite way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/45 "2005-03-24T02:05:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford both seem to be good candidates for heading the opposite way. You know, I agree. And what does THAT say about successful vs unsuccessful presidents? :eek: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/46 "2005-03-24T02:12:18Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Kinda hard to avoid the matter when we’re talking about a political figure, ainnit? Not really. The issue is religious, the thread is aimed to gauge specifically christian responses. Your political _opinion_ by all understandings of Christianity accepted by any sect of Christianity in the world has absolutely no relevance to whether or not GWB is going to heaven or hell, and I don’t think it takes a genius to recognize that fact. Anyways, you basically made the assumption that any god that let X person into heaven isn’t deserving of worship. Which basically is saying any god that offers forgiveness isn’t worthy of worship. Which means you aren’t Christian (or if you are, you believe in a sick and perverted form of Christianity) so I don’t see how your opinion means anything at all in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/47 "2005-03-24T02:21:42Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > I can answer that by saying that, while Hell does not appear in the Bible, Matthew Chapter 7 certainly does. And I certainly have enough trouble keeping my mind on my own adherence to the Christian example to have enough time to worry about the adherence of some dude I only met once. Very good point. Even if I believed that people when to hell for sinning and failure to repent, which I do not - like Metacom I was taught Universalism, specifically the theory that there is no hell for any but the Devil himself; those who do not go to heaven simply cease to exist without eternal torment- the bible tells us not to concern ourselves with judging others’ souls since that’s God’s concern alone. I’m sure Bush has sins to repent for, as do we all, if he’d like to go to Heaven but I’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/48 "2005-03-24T02:54:44Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > This is your assertion, sure, and it seems to be a popular view. But can you show me any kind of proof that Bush’s religious views are in this fringe element of methodism? > > You can back this up, right? [Actually, no. I appear to be wrong.](http://web2.airmail.net/dsh440/bush_is_no.htm) Bush is neither Fund’ist nor evangelical. However, I think that the article I linked to does back what I think is the more important point, which is my belief that Bush’s Christianity is largely feigned in order to gain political advantage by scoring points with the Christian Right. He does very carefully couch his speech in Fund’ist/Evangelical terms, even though he doesn’t subscribe to that particular branch of Xian belief. He also does not attend church services regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/49 "2005-03-24T03:01:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This goes back to murder vs. kill. As Commandar-in-Chief he is taking a millitary action and gets a pass under killing is OK, a pass which every service man also gets. I was unaware of the modern military exemption clause to the laws of God. It is good to hear that I can kill anyone I choose as long as the government says it is ok. I am a little concerned to hear, though, that every Nuremberg defense is supported by this assertion. But, that is the beauty of religion, it will justify anything you want. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/50 "2005-03-24T03:13:36Z")
In my personal interpretation of Christianity, we are not allowed to judge anybody else, at all, ever. Period. Not that it never goes on of course, but based on what I believe, I try to avoid it if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/51 "2005-03-24T06:23:31Z")
He is going to Hell only if he refuses to accept God’s mercy. Same as anybody else. God forgives everything. But you have to let Him (which includes repenting, i.e., realizing and accepting your failures/sins/faults). And no, the idea is not to say “bah, since God will forgive me anyway I’ll go and kill me a few thousand people” - it’s that if you went and killed a few thousand people thinking it was the right thing to do, you have all eternity to realize it was not the right thing at all (that’s what us Catholics call Purgatory - the notion that you get a first judgment at your death, as in the saints that Revelations says are already in heaven before the final judgment, _and_ a review at the final judgment). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/52 "2005-03-24T14:14:50Z")
> [@ggurl](#): > > In my personal interpretation of Christianity, we are not allowed to judge anybody else, at all, ever. Period. Not that it never goes on of course, but based on what I believe, I try to avoid it if at all possible. Hope ya don’t get called for jury duty! _G_ Seriously, Jesus’s “Judge Not” passage starts Matthew 7- in which Jesus then goes on to tell us to not cast pearls before swine or give holy things to dogs, to beware false prophets, to know people by their fruits. In other words, Jesus warns us against judging _until we know how to judge rightly, which is what he spends the rest of the chapter teaching us._ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/53 "2005-03-24T14:38:48Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > [Actually, no. I appear to be wrong.](http://web2.airmail.net/dsh440/bush_is_no.htm) > > Bush is neither Fund’ist nor evangelical. > > However, I think that the article I linked to does back what I think is the more important point, which is my belief that Bush’s Christianity is largely feigned in order to gain political advantage by scoring points with the Christian Right. He does very carefully couch his speech in Fund’ist/Evangelical terms, even though he doesn’t subscribe to that particular branch of Xian belief. He also does not attend church services regularly. Thanks for looking into the matter more closely. I think it’s a given that Bush is not a fundamentalist or an evangelical. I do not think it necessarily follows, though, that Bush’s faith is less sincere or closely held by virtue of being more tolerant and ecumenical. [Paul Kengor](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/09/19/INGJ68P10N1.DTL) has looked into the matter in some depth, from a Christian viewpoint, and has this to say about President Bush’s faith: > [@](#): > > As someone who studies the faith of our presidents, I can say with complete confidence that I’ve never encountered a president with a faith as ecumenical as Bush’s. His faith is so ecumenical, and so touchy-feely, that it is at times, frankly, kind of sappy. > > …The Christian gospel – which George W. Bush reads literally each morning and has read in its entirety numerous times – says that of all the gifts God gave humanity, the greatest is love. The greatest commandments of the law, said Jesus Christ, are to love God and love thy neighbor. Christ essentially said that people will know that Christians are Christians by the love Christians show. Bush fully subscribes to this love theology. And it is that love-thy-neighbor mentality that makes Bush tolerant of other faiths. > > The pious Protestant has, for instance, embraced Catholics and Jews. He has appointed devout Catholics to key faith-related positions, such as James Towey, a onetime attorney for Mother Teresa, as director of Bush’s coveted Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. He has immense respect for Pope John Paul II, whom he has called a “great man” and a “hero of history.” In his first year in office, Bush noted eight separate Jewish events, including Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah. On December 10, 2001, for the first time in American history, the president lit a Hanukkah menorah at the White House residence as a symbol that the White House is “the people’s house” and that it belongs to people of all faiths. > > …Bush believes that God wants all humans to be free, claiming: “In every human breast, God has implanted a principle which we call love of freedom.” He does not exclude Muslims from that principle – quite the contrary, as is evident by his incredibly ambitious and idealistic plans for a democratic Iraq, Afghanistan and Middle East generally. > > …This will shock Bush’s detractors, but it’s true: In many ways, Bush’s brand of Christianity is more liberal than it is conservative, though overall he is probably theologically moderate. Hatred of Bush has precluded his opponents’ ability to make these crucial distinctions, and has led to the creation of numerous myths regarding his faith. To cite just one: No, he has never said that he believed God called on him to remove Saddam Hussein, and such was not one of his motivations for invading Iraq. To the contrary, he has cited his faith as a motivation for his $15 billion AIDS package, and for his massive expansion of Medicare benefits – two moves that furthered the already huge U.S. budget deficit, but both actions that liberals ought to embrace. He says that his faith has taught him that hate crimes, defacing synagogues and racial prejudice are “evil.” > > This man’s faith continues to be badly misinterpreted. Liberals can name a lot of reasons to vote against Bush, but his faith should not be one of them. It is unconventional only in its openness to other faiths. And, no, it is not a fundamentalist faith. (Full disclaimer: Paul Kengor has been a personal friend of mine for many years.) ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/54 "2005-03-24T14:50:18Z")
> [@Hey you!](#): > > So, how will he be judged in the afterlife? By the blood of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/55 "2005-03-24T17:02:19Z")
Does the following Bush comment strike anyone else as rather odd? Or is this par for the course in the religious mindset? [God instructed me to strike at Saddam](http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1147israel.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/56 "2005-03-24T17:25:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Does the following Bush comment strike anyone else as rather odd? Or is this par for the course in the religious mindset? > > [God instructed me to strike at Saddam](http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1147israel.html) Let’s be clear on the source of this quote. From the Washington Post: > [@](#): > > Imagine our surprise Wednesday to read in the Israeli paper Haaretz (online), that Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen, meeting recently with militants to enlist their support for a truce with Israel, said that, when they met in Aqaba, President Bush had told him this: " God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam… > > \ > > The Arabic-speaking colleague’s translation, was this: “God inspired me to hit al Qaeda, and so I hit it. And I had the inspiration to hit Saddam, and so I hit him. Now I am determined to solve the Middle East problem if you help. Otherwise the elections will come and I will be wrapped up with them.” > > Even then, there’s uncertainty. After all, this is Abu Mazen’s account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic, then back into English. There is more than enough room for different interpretations here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/57 "2005-03-24T17:30:30Z")
Oops. Forget to include the [link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?language=printer) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/58 "2005-03-24T18:20:14Z")
Did Bush or any of his underlings ever deny the accuracy of said quote? I’d be interested in such a cite if available. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/59 "2005-03-24T19:10:27Z")
**RF** : I don’t know if any denial was ever issued. The WP article I linked to said calls to the WH were unreturned. While it’s certainly possible that Bush did say it, or something like it, to Abas, I wouldn’t use it as a debating point unless there’s a legit news source reporting it as a straight up news story. I’ve only seen it in opinion pieces. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835/60 "2005-03-24T22:04:29Z")
Fair enough, **John**. However, there are plenty of Bush quotes on the record, that reveal the extraordinary claim of him having a direct line to “God.” [Heaven Sent - Does God endorse George Bush ?](http://www.eurolegal.org/bbiraqwar.shtml) > [@](#): > > Several sympathetic books about Bush and his faith make a big deal of his deciding to run for president after hearing a Texas minister named Rev. Mark Craig preach about how Moses had been called to service by God. Bush’s mother reportedly turned to her son after the sermon and said, “He was talking to you.” > > Stephen Mansfield, author of The Faith of George W. Bush, goes on to say: "Not long after, Bush called James Robison (a prominent minister) and told him, ‘I’ve heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for President.’ " Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention heard Bush say something similar: “Among the things he said to us was: I believe that God wants me to be president.” > > After 9/11, the sense among his supporters that God had chosen him increased. “I think that God picked the right man at the right time for the right purpose,” said popular Christian broadcaster Janet Parshall. Gen. William “Jerry” Boykin, who got in trouble for derogatory comments about Islam, argued that it must have been God who selected Bush, since a plurality of voters hadn’t. “Why is this man in the White House? The majority of America did not vote for him. He’s in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this.” (Boykin still has his job.) > > Time magazine reported, “Privately, Bush talked of being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment.” World Magazine, a conservative Christian publication, quoted White House official Tim Goeglein as saying, “I think President Bush is God’s man at this hour, and I say this with a great sense of humility.”… > > **It’s hard to recall another instance of a presidential campaign so confidently promulgating the idea that its candidate had divine endorsement. The potentially dangerous implication is that since God put George W. Bush in the White House, opposing him is opposing Him. A person could get smited for that.** (bolding mine) And plenty have… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-only-is-george-w-bush-going-to-hell/295835.md?page=4)