# Christians persecuted in China **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 3, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581 "2005-04-03T23:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/41 "2005-04-04T08:27:12Z")
> [@monica](#): > > A friend of mine went to China last year with a group from her church to teach English to some of the kids there and teach Christianity right along with it. She was telling me how they had to learn how to smuggle bible tracts in, as the tracts weren’t allowed to enter the country. with all due respect, this bible smuggling is a scam. i’m psting from my pda and can’t really surf, but i posted on a thread about this a few years ago after taking my missionary mother to china’s largest bible publisher in Nanjing China. IIRC, the director showed me the plaque commemmorating publishing 5 million bibles(it might have been 2 million or maybe 20 million). please give a donation because those poor chinese christian’s need a bible…and i need two bucks for the subway 'cause my wallet got stolen (btw, the publisher accepts donations if you really want to help and my mother’s church did just that.) there are issues with christians in china, especially those that don’t come under ‘authorized’ organizations. but availability of bibles isn’t one of the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/42 "2005-04-04T08:38:55Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > IIRC, the director showed me the plaque commemmorating publishing 5 million bibles(it might have been 2 million or maybe 20 million). Yes, but were they Official, Jack Chick-Certified King James Bibles with the special myrrh pouch inside the cover? If not, that’s over 5 million deluded hellbound you got there. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/43 "2005-04-04T08:43:11Z")
1. Is the Catholic Church forbidden in China? 2. Long Bet prediction: > [@](#): > > Kevin Kelly predicts: “China will be considered a Christian nation, with at least 33% of its residents identifying themselves as Christians, by the year 2085.” [http://www.longbets.org/119](http://www.longbets.org/119) Is that likely? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/44 "2005-04-04T12:17:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Is that likely? Probably extremely unlikely. Chinese culture (as opposed to the current Chinese government) has traditionally not been spiritually exclusivist. Confucianism (not really a religion so much as a philosophy), Taoism and Buddhism coexisted side-by-side for centuries. Fifty years or so of official Communist atheism isn’t enough to create a religious vacuum large enough for 1/3 of the country to go Christian, especially when there are plenty of very rural areas where they barely know who the Communists are. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/45 "2005-04-04T12:26:10Z")
1. Yes and no. There is a department to oversee the affairs of Catholics, but China does not permit Catholics to recognize the authority of Rome. There are both government-approved institutions and illegal underground churches. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/46 "2005-04-04T12:31:27Z")
> [@Thinktank](#): > > not to mention you’re straying from the orginal topic. Right. Christians are the topic. I’m sorry for bringing up the fact that Tibetans and Uighurs are persecuted, too. I promise that I will never again make the mistake of bringing up the topic of the treatment of people that you might not be able to relate to. > [@rune](#): > > 1. Is the Catholic Church forbidden in China? There’s a state-ruin Catholic Church that is perfectly legal, but it does not recognize the authority of the Pope. So, in that sense, yes, the _real_ Catholic Church is forbidden in China. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/47 "2005-04-04T12:32:26Z")
> [@monica](#): > > A friend of mine went to China last year with a group from her church to teach English to some of the kids there and teach Christianity right along with it. She was telling me how they had to learn how to smuggle bible tracts in, as the tracts weren’t allowed to enter the country. Render unto God that which is God’s and render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s or words to that effect. Breaking the law of the land is not the way to go. Besides which, if the tracts are illegal in China, putting them into the hands of Chinese citizens makes those citizens subject to whatever penalties are in place. I sure hope those tracts weren’t of the Jack Chick variety. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/48 "2005-04-04T13:04:35Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I sure hope those tracts weren’t of the Jack Chick variety. Are there any other kinds? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/49 "2005-04-04T13:32:23Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Per usual, Diogenes has helped me clarify my own views by representing his so starkly that I can’t help but see how repugnant they are. (Good thing this thread isn’t political. One more of those and I’ll end up voting republican, God forbid.) Tell me exactly what what I said that’s repugnant and why. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/50 "2005-04-04T13:33:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, who has been expelled just for feeding people? No one, I expect. They enter the country saying they are going to be feeding people, but have to sneak the Bibles in also. But, the least they can do is to stop whining. > > And treating people with a religion a thousand years older than Christianity as if they don’t know anything about the spiritual world is the height of arrogance. In India, Christianity is almost considered a cult. You see, it does what cults do: turn people away from their religion, culture, family, and home, to believe in a Savior from another land rather than our own perfectly good Saviors. It causes families to break up and fall apart since now the beliefs are clashing with each other. And someone else mentioned, you’re sneaking those Bibles in - you’re willing to take the risk. (You probably aren’t, since you don’t know the risks or choose to be ignorant, but we’ll take that as assumed). However, you are also responsible for the people who accept the Bible and get into trouble with their own repressive government. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/51 "2005-04-04T13:34:39Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Diogenes** , what about the Maryknoll Order? What about missionaries going to the Third World to HELP these people, but spread the Gospel while doing so? Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.” > > Next thing, you’ll be telling us that those four US church women who were raped and murdered in El Salvador in 1981 got what they deserved. Helping people is fine as long as they keep their religion to themselves. It is never necessary or helpful to proselytize. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/52 "2005-04-04T13:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Wasn’t that an effoert to throw out the christians that were undermining the culture, language and traditions of thousands of years? It was more ethnic pride and budding nationalism than anything religious. It did get mixed up in a strange cultish-phenomena, and quite a few people apparently did believe their skill in martial arts would help them stop bullets. > [@](#): > > Diogenes > > Religious proselytization furthers no worthy cause. It’s purely selfish, pointless, disrespectful and insulting to the people are targeted by it. I would admire anyone who agitated illegally for free speech or social reform, even religious freedom but religious proselytization is not about religious freedom it’s about pushing one religion only. No owrthy cause in your eyes. Some of us believe the cause itself is worthy. To say it’s is disrespectful merely assumes what you intend to prove: that religion is worthless. You can only think in terms of bland social reform, and ignore any process by which this might take place. > [@](#): > > Anyone who believes that is a moron. Since you are assuming what you intend to prove, why are you bothering to post? Yes, we know you believe we’re completely stupid and shoudl all die because apparently we offend the great and powerful and wise Diogenes. But some people believe in something more important than their own life. > [@](#): > > Voyager > > And treating people with a religion a thousand years older than Christianity as if they don’t know anything about the spiritual world is the height of arrogance. The mere fact that we believe we have something to teach them, and have a deeper understanding of the divine, does not mean we believe they know nothing. Age is no guarrantor of accuracy. Moreover, half of China’s religion comes from India anyway. Were the early BUddhists horrendously assinine and arrigant to believe they had something to teach the Chinese, or the japanese for that matter? [Spock]This is a highly illogical argument.[/Spock] > [@](#): > > Matt\_MCL > > Furthermore, several branches of Christianity teach that a person need not be damned if s/he was not saved simply because s/he never heard the word of Christ. The majority by far, actually. Your view are skewed because of certian loud and visible groups, whose doctrinal acccuracy is often quite loose within their own denominition. > [@](#): > > LouisB > > Breaking the law of the land is not the way to go. I agree it is dangerous, but _Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s_ only suggests that one must give to the state what properly belongs to it. This does not and never has, I believe, included control of the spiritual sphere. And in any case, while a missionary might be accountable to the secular authorities, he should not bow to them regardless of the fact of their power and corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/53 "2005-04-04T13:56:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Helping people is fine as long as they keep their religion to themselves. It is never necessary or helpful to proselytize. Am I mistaken that this site is dedicated to proselytizing that rather quaint idea of The Truth by “fighting ignorance”? Christians, Fighting Ignorance Since 34 Or Thereabouts. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/54 "2005-04-04T14:01:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Diogenes** , what about the Maryknoll Order? What about missionaries going to the Third World to HELP these people, but spread the Gospel while doing so? Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.” Next thing, you’ll be telling us that those four US church women who were raped and murdered in El Salvador in 1981 got what they deserved. Shhh! He’s busy beating up the Jehovahs out front. Don’t disturb him, he lives for this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/55 "2005-04-04T14:13:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Tell me exactly what what I said that’s repugnant and why. Actually not so much “repugnant” as “hypocritical”. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Fight for religious freedom but don’t try to dictate what that religion has to be. So we should fight for religious freedom, but not object when it is denied. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > People who care about religious freedom should be just as willing to import Korans and Talmuds and Tao Te Chings, noy just Bibles. So atheists and agnostics apparently don’t care about religious freedom, since they object to the importation of Bibles. I assume Korans and Talmuds as well. Or try this: > [@Nobody](#): > > The US has freedom as regards sexual orientation. China doesn’t. A gay who is going to knowingly break the laws of another country is going to have to accept the consequences if they get caught. Whether the laws are just or unjust is completely beside the point. There are some instances where risking life and limb by breaking the laws of another country is commendable. Getting laid is not one of those reasons, IMO. It’s presumptious, ethnocentric, chauvanistic and profoundly disrespectful. Or: > [@More nobody](#): > > The US has democracy. China doesn’t. Anyone who is going to knowingly break the laws of another country by protesting in Tianmen Square is going to have to accept the consequences if they get run over by a tank. Whether the laws are just or unjust is completely beside the point. While you’re at it, maybe you could explain why the [UN Charter](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) applies to Bush but not to the Red Chinese. Not much on consistency, are you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/56 "2005-04-04T14:27:12Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > No owrthy cause in your eyes. Some of us believe the cause itself is worthy. To say it’s is disrespectful merely assumes what you intend to prove: that religion is worthless. You can only think in terms of bland social reform, and ignore any process by which this might take place. I didn’t say religion was worthless, I said religious _proselytization_ was worthless. There is not a shred of virtue into trying to force someone else believe the same thing you believe. There is nothing commendable or humanitarian or selfless about it. All you’re doing is insulting those you’re pretending to care about. > [@](#): > > Since you are assuming what you intend to prove, why are you bothering to post? Yes, we know you believe we’re completely stupid and shoudl all die because apparently we offend the great and powerful and wise Diogenes. But some people believe in something more important than their own life. What you believe for yourself is not the point. The point is that if you actually think that hundreds of millions of Chinse people are in mortal danger because they don’t happen to share your religious beliefs and that you need to “save” them by preaching at them, then you don’t have a very worthwhile God and your intentions lack thoughfulness, reason and above all respect for those you would target. > [@](#): > > The mere fact that we believe we have something to teach them, and have a deeper understanding of the divine, does not mean we believe they know nothing. Age is no guarrantor of accuracy. Read that first sentence again. The fact that you think you have “a deeper understanding of the divine” or that there is a single fucking thing you can teach them makes you unbelievably arrogant, disrespectful, uninformed, ethnocentric, narrow-minded and even unspiritual. You say age is “no guarantor of accuracy” as if you _have_ some guarantor of accuracy. You don’t. You just have one more opinion in a sea of opininions, none of them backed up with any evidence. [quote] Moreover, half of China’s religion comes from India anyway. Were the early BUddhists horrendously assinine and arrigant to believe they had something to teach the Chinese, or the japanese for that matter? [Spock]This is a highly illogical argument.[/Spock] Buddhism isn’t a religion of belief. It doesn’t tell people that what they believe now is wrong. It doesn’t say that anybody needs to be “saved.” It’s not even a religion at all in the western sense. Buddhists don’t think you have to be a Buddhist to get enlightened. It does not employ the same kind of exclusivist evangelization and proselytezation as Christianity does. The first Buddhist missionaries into China also weren’t breaking any local laws. Having said all that, I woud still say yes, there was some philosophical arrogance in the Buddhist movement into China but the philosophy also absorbed quite a bit of local Chinese and Japanese insights and produced refinements like Zen. It was an interaction of mutual respect and learning not just one patronizing culture trying to educate heathens. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/57 "2005-04-04T14:50:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is not a shred of virtue into trying to force someone else believe the same thing you believe. There is nothing commendable or humanitarian or selfless about it. All you’re doing is insulting those you’re pretending to care about. And yet, here you are spouting off. Although, to give you credit, you have made it clear that you care nothing for the rights of those with whom you disagree. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/58 "2005-04-04T14:55:03Z")
I just love this, if I was to walk into the united states and told you guys how fucking wrong your laws and constitution were and did so by breaking the law then I’d probably spend time in prison then be deported. So this is what happens to people who go into someone else’s house and tell them they are wrong, that is unless your an American and then it’s ok because it’s a first amendment right. Fuck you! Deliver what aid needs to be delivered but don’t subject others to your propaganda, this could very easily back fire on those you are trying to free. I guess it would suprise many here to find out that your constitution doesn’t apply to other countries. Once again I really don’t get this it’s ok for us to do unto others attitude but if the tables were turned the outrage would be unanimous. :rolleyes: China is opening up with albeit slow diplomatic pressure from many nations, but it is happening. I just see this as something which will slow that process even further. Come into my house and tell me how wrong I am for doing what I do and I’ll knock your fucking head off your shoulders. How many people here openly accept JW’s into their house and sit there while being told how utterly corrupt your morals are without getting upset or outraged. There definately aren’t enough :rolleyes: > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Moreover, half of China’s religion comes from India anyway. Were the early BUddhists horrendously assinine and arrigant to believe they had something to teach the Chinese, or the japanese for that matter? So this makes it alright for you to be doing the same thing, I guess two wrongs obviously make it right. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/59 "2005-04-04T14:57:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually not so much “repugnant” as “hypocritical”. > So we should fight for religious freedom, but not object when it is denied. Of course you should object when it’s denied. When have I said otherwise? > [@](#): > > So atheists and agnostics apparently don’t care about religious freedom, since they object to the importation of Bibles. I assume Korans and Talmuds as well. All atheists and agnostics object to the importation of Bibles? Cite? If you’re just talking about me, I only object to the _exclusive_ importation of Bibles. I wouldn’t object to an effort to provide a diversity of religious material without any effort to push one religion over another. But Christian evangelists importing only KJVs is not about promoting religious freedom, it’s about promoting Christianity. Or try this: Or: [/quote] You’re switching the argument away from outsiders going into the country abd breaking the law to the locals doing it. You’re also ignoring the fact that i’ve already said that some things are worth breaking the law for and other things aren’t. Agitating for democratic reforms is a worthwhile cause. Browbeating people about Jesus is not. Not all causes are equal. > [@](#): > > While you’re at it, maybe you could explain why the [UN Charter](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) applies to Bush but not to the Red Chinese. When did I Not much on consistency, are you? [/quote] Huh? 😕 When did I say that China was not violating human rights? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581/60 "2005-04-04T14:59:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And yet, here you are spouting off. > > Although, to give you credit, you have made it clear that you care nothing for the rights of those with whom you disagree. > > Regards, > Shodan I have no idea what point you’re trying to make with this post. Could you specify exactly which of your rights I’ve disrespected? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-persecuted-in-china/297581.md?page=4)