# Christians--the persecuted majority **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826 "2001-02-17T00:31:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/121 "2001-02-22T03:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yosemitebabe_ > > > [@](#): > > > > Say, for example, Yosemitebabe’s reason for taking Sundays off was because it was her “quality time” with her kids. Chances are this asshole boss wouldn’t have liked that either. > > **??? Yes, that would be OK with her! I have been repeating several that times!** Okay, so someone who is an established “asshole boss” on all accounts is suddenly totally truthful in his or her statements? Are you saying (s)he was an asshole, but trustworthy as well? I have had asshole bosses before, and I wouldn’t have trusted them as far as I could have thrown them. Any of them. No matter what particular specific brand of “assholism” they were inflicted with. Is this a new strain of “asshole boss” who is somehow honest? Oh, and don’t bosses “pass judgment on what is and isn’t a good reason to not be available to work” all of the time? That’s part of their job. Some very reasonable people have told me that they wouldn’t hire me because I wanted Sunday’s off for the NFL. If I said church, it might have been different, but who knows? They might have also thought things were different if I said that every other Sunday I had custody of my kids and needed those weekends free. Either way, any time off from availability or a normal work schedule is discriminatory by nature as far as whether it’s accepted or not. Also, in your self-defense, you make it sound LESS important that something might be wrong with your children than going to church. I doubt that is the case, and in fact most religions say that God has an out-clause on that as well, so you might want to amend this. I also do suggest that you start your new thread, yosemitebabe, because while you claimed that you knew that asshole boss =/= persecution, you are still posting about your asshole boss in a thread with persecution right in the subject line, which makes me wonder. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/122 "2001-02-22T04:22:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > Okay, so someone who is an established “asshole boss” on all accounts is suddenly totally truthful in his or her statements? Employees with kids didn’t get the same kind of flack I did about days off. Employees with classes didn’t get the flack about days off. Her _actions_ and words both. It is _what happened._ OK? > [@](#): > > Oh, and don’t bosses “pass judgment on what is and isn’t a good reason to not be available to work” all of the time? That’s part of their job. Sigh. Yes, they do. But as I have _repeated_ many times, I was hired with the understanding that I _DID NOT WORK **SUNDAYS** _. OK? How many times do I have to repeat this? Is it “part of the boss’s job” to not honor the stipulations that were made and agreed upon when an employee was hired? Is it part of a boss’s job to backslide and not honor this? If I had been hired to a job where I _knew_ I would have to work Sundays, when I knew I did not want to work Sundays, and then bitched about it later, that would be one thing. _But that’s not what happened._ I took the job **with Sundays off.** Did I mention it was a _part time_ job? _Everyone_ had days they could not work. Their reasons varied. But they ALL had days and times they couldn’t work! And either the boss hired them with these “unavailable” days settled, or not. But it is not right to hire some one who is “not available” at certain times, and then after the fact expect them to work those times anyway. What part of this don’t you agree with? > [@](#): > > Some very reasonable people have told me that they wouldn’t hire me because I wanted Sunday’s off for the NFL. So did you work for them, or not? You’d be a fool to take a job with someone who wanted you to work a day you couldn’t/wouldn’t work. These are the things that are settled _before you are hired._ Right? That’s what I did. I settled it before I was hired, and was led to believe that I had SUNDAYS OFF. Or so I thought… Let’s say you took a job with someone who said “OK, Sundays off”, you take the job with the expectations and clear understanding that you get Sundays off, and later on the bosses say “Uh! Sorry! No Sundays off after all! Your _reasons_ aren’t good enough!” Would that be just “part of their job” to do that to you? > [@](#): > > Also, in your self-defense, you make it sound LESS important that something might be wrong with your children than going to church. I doubt that is the case, and in fact most religions say that God has an out-clause on that as well, so you might want to amend this. I am sorry, I am lost. What the hell do you mean??? > [@](#): > > I also do suggest that you start your new thread, yosemitebabe, because while you claimed that you knew that asshole boss =/= persecution, you are still posting about your asshole boss in a thread with persecution right in the subject line, which makes me wonder. This subject wouldn’t have come up so much if people would stop asking questions and making assumptions that I have _already commented on_ earlier in this thread. I’ve had to repeat myself many times on this whole tale. It’s almost as if a few of you are highly motivated to find any reason to NOT to accept that my boss did what she did because of anti-religious feelings. (As opposed to just because she’s a jerk to everyone, for any reason she can come up with.) No, what happened to me was not _organized_ persecution or discrimination. But it was anti-religiously motivated, discrimination, and, according to some, one-on-one “persecution”. And it was brought up by me in the first place because FoG had something simular happen to him. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/123 "2001-02-22T05:32:00Z")
For real. Satan, Yosemitebabe’s got your number. She didn’t introduce her case as an example of the persecution mentioned in the OP. It was a reaction to FoG’s story of a similar situation. She’s been totally levelheaded about the whole thing. She is not trying to apply it to every case. She just relayed what happened to her. You’re being a lot more adversarial than you need to be. She means exactly what she has said and implies nothing more. So lighten up a little, and let’s all be friends, 'K? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/124 "2001-02-22T07:01:28Z")
May I make an honest suggestion? Give up trying to convince Satan. You could lay out the plainest case in the world (which, actually, you’ve already done) and it wouldn’t matter. He _will_ find something in your words to twist, because he does not like your conclusion. I have finally come to the realization that there are a few posters on here who could care less about the truth. They just want to keep the debate rolling, and if twisting someone’s words accomplishes that, they will do it. Thankfully, most people on here want an _honest_ debate. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/125 "2001-02-22T08:00:32Z")
Well I’ve been trying to catch up in the now-awkwardly named ‘movie’ thread so much I almost forgot this one. But I’m up ridiculously late and wide awake, so I’ll try to give this one equal time. **tygerbright** said: > [@](#): > > I’m new here, and I’m a Christian. However (with apologies to fellow-believers), I fail to see how any person in their right mind can conclude that Christians are persecuted in this country. First of all, welcome! Second, I agree. As I said in my first post in this thread, no Christian in the USA undergoes _true_ “persection”. It’s more like harassment, ridicule, etc … not pleasant things, but not persecution. > [@](#): > > What frightens me, as a Christian, is the fact that Christians STILL have it (nearly) all our way in this country. How are we supposed to be good Christians without persecution? VERY TRUE POINT actually! It’s soooo easy to be lazy and complacent when you can express your faith freely. As for my Malaysian friend whose parents disowned her, **Satan** said: > [@](#): > > I don’t consider this “percecution,” and I wouldn’t say it begins to answer toe call of institutionalized persecution which is the main issue here. Actually, you’re right. Good point. Again, more like ‘harassment’. Now that I think about it, I don’t know anyone _personally_ that has ever been through _actual_ persecution. I’ve only read about it regarding the church in China, et al… > [@](#): > > Well, at a recent job interview in the retail sector, I told them I couldn’t work Sundays. (Don’t get excited… It ws because of FOOTBALL, though I do plan on going back to church now that the NFL is done.) I didn’t get the job. > > I didn’t care much - I’m making more on unemployment and retail blows. And they never asked me about why I needed Sundays off. It could have been church… > > So I was not persecuted. I was just unable to perform the job at the hours/days they needed the help. That’s a completely different situation. First, do you know for sure you didn’t get the job _because_ you couldn’t work Sundays? And even if it _was_ the reason, that’s a different situation. If the requirement of the job is that you work at a time you can’t work, that’s understandable if you don’t get the job. But that wasn’t the case in my situation at all. Interestingly, these types of situations are one of many reasons why many churches are holding services at non traditional times. My former church in Atlanta now has 7 alternate services you can attend: Friday night at 7, Saturday nights at 5 or 7, Sunday mornings at 8 or 10, and Sunday nights at 5 or 7. Same sermon at each. Most popular times are Friday night at 7 and Sunday AM at 10. > [@](#): > > In the real world, this is not called “persecution.” This is called an asshole boss. Please put in “asshole boss” in a search engine here in The Pit and see how many people have had them. Again, I never called it ‘persecution’ per se, but it was clearly harassment and expressing an anti-Christian sentiment toward me. And believe me it was _not_ just because she was a jerk (although she was). She _singled_ _me_ _out_. In fact, every one of my coworkers noticed it and pointed it out to me. I remember a new girl who had been working with us less than a week asking me, “Why on earth does she love to pick on you so much?” I should have mentioned this before…it wasnt just the Wed PM thing, she harassed me in general too. I remember one time she just outright yelled at me in front of the whole office. I went to her privately and called her on the carpet for it, honestly not really caring if she fired me (I was not going to take it from her, regardless of what she did). People like this, I’ve found, are nothing but big bullies that are used to intimidating people and getting away with it. Sometimes if you call them on the carpet, surprisingly, they will back down. This one did, sort of, although she’d never admit it. Anyway, there were times we _talked_ about issues … which by the way were discussion _she_ initiated. Had I known early on how it would be used against me, I might not have answered her questions. But she asked me about political and religious views and we discussed all kinds of things a time or two. She was _quite_ passionate in her disagreement with me on just about everything. So anyway, hopefully that gives a more full picture of the situation. > [@](#): > > Case in point, FoG: You know that many people have done assholish things in the name of Jesus. People have killed in His name, you know, and I’ve seen you come out and decry them as wrong on these pages. > > Yet, even they did not “persecute” anyone, per se. Sure, I would say that they are assholes. I mean, stalking and killing abortion doctors sucks! But I wouldn’t say abortionists are “persectued.” I would say that one asshole did an unfortunate thing. So, in your definition of ‘persecution’, it has to be pretty widespread. I can actually see your point. In fact, it’s true. I can’t think of any season of genuine persecution in church history that wasn’t very widespread. > [@](#): > > I would like a citation of someone here telling either Polycarp or RTFirefly, two Christians here of long standing, that they were hated becausxe they were Christian. I don’t know of any, but that’s not what I said. I said: > [@](#): > > this message board is a prime example. The hatred and scorn shown toward Christianity here is rather brazen. You tried turning it into commentary on my accuracy, but I’m not talking about that. I mean toward _Christianity_ in general. As one small example here’s a quote from jenkinsfan’s gospel summary thread: > [@](#): > > In short the God of fundementalism Christian is an asshole. > > Said God doesn’t deserve worship. Said God should abdicate to someone who can do the job. His failure to do so is selfish and bad for everyone. > > I’m not meaning to attack jenkinsfan or FoG or anyone like them, just the piece of shit God that they believe in. Oh yes its horribely immature to be angry at this God. Though any dictator deserves this anger. Having said that, there is the same aimed at Christians as well, such as myself, jenkinsfan and others. I’ve seen some _nasty_ stuff! Case in point, from the same thread: > [@](#): > > And I don’t listen to parrots. They say things without knowing what those words really mean, just mimicking what someone else said around it. They don’t have the ability to think about what they say, or question it. They just repeat it, over and over. > > … > > Even Christians are welcome, and some do join. > > Just not stupid parrots. Oops! Those are your words Satan ;). Hey, out of curiosity, since I was (justifiably) called on the carpet by Gaudere in the movie thread for calling DB an idiot, will Satan get in trouble for calling jenkinsfan a stupid parrot? Or perhaps for this line from page 1 of this thread: > [@](#): > > This board does not like idiots. > > Some idiots happen to be Christian. Onward. Satan continues… [Quote] So what is your definition of a Christian? Someone who lives up to YOUR standards or Gods? [Quote] Answer: > [@](#): > > On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” > > “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” > > He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” > > “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28) I said: > [@](#): > > One of the indications that someone is in this tragic category is the “Christian” who says, “Well I can sin as much as I want and God will just forgive me”. You responded: > [@](#): > > Funny, but I never met anyone who said that. I’ve met _dozens_ of people who believed this way, mostly during my college years. Believe me, not everyone who goes to church is a believer in Christ. I continued: > [@](#): > > This person is just looking for an excuse to sin. Can you see how someone in this category wouldn’t appreciate someone messing up his comfy doctrine? You replied: > [@](#): > > Yes. Definitely veiled anti-Catholic rhetoric here. ??? I’m sorry but I’m laughing! What does _any_ thing I just quoted have to do with _Catholicism_??? > [@](#): > > PLEASE SHOW ME SPECIFIC CASES OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS PERSECUTING OTHER PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS ??? And you want this … why? This has not even been a topic of this thread. If you really want it, check throughout church history, esp early in the last millenium, and you’ll find plenty of Christian vs CHristian wars that are scars on church history. > [@](#): > > Your boldest claim on the other thread wwas that sex on TV is a form of persecution. And in spite of the fact that everyone showed you that this was not the case at all, you still refuse to believe the evidence right in front of your face. Heh … as usual, a little twisting there Satan. Never called it ‘persecution’, that’s your word. It _is_ an attack on Christian principles for sure. Just because some of you _say_ it’s not doesn’t make it true. I’m not quite sure how you think you provided ‘evidence’ that this was _not_ true! I realize some opinions were thrown around, but that’s different. > [@](#): > > Because you HAVE to believe in some kind of persecution! The Bible says so, so it must be true! LOL! THATS IT!!! No, as I’ve already stated, the Bible merely confirms what we already experience. Nice theory, but I’m afraid it’s not accurate. > [@](#): > > If we’re talking history, there is also no denying that Christians have done there share of persecuting. Yup. As I said, scars on church history. > [@](#): > > I would even give you persecution in other countries today, as long as you give me that this same persecution happens to people of all faiths in many of those countries as well, making it RELIGIOUS persecution, not specifically Christian. Uh, I’m not asking you to “give” me anything. And I’m certainly not going to “give” you something I have no proof of. Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted. Maybe they are! I’m not at all ruling it out, I’ve just not heard of it. Regarding the **court cases** I cited, which you predictably tried to argue down one by one, let me point out one thing out at least: I linked to some cases in which a Christian _won_ the case. The point of giving you those links was simply that the harassment occurred in the first place that forced a trial to have to occur. These are a mere handful of examples. You can find scads more at the ACLJ site. But as I said to yosimitebabe, it doesn’t matter how much evidence I give you, I have the feeling you _will_ find something about it to water it down. As for the link you provided to the awful story about the atheist who was attacked by Christians … I would like to request what I asked for either in the other thread or this one. I’m not even sure it was you Satan but someone linked to it. Could you provide an _independent_ source for this story? I’m not saying it’s not true, just that this article is by _the person_ it allegedly happened to. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/126 "2001-02-22T08:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > This seems like as good a point as any to bring up the fact that “persecuted majority” syndrome is one of the big features of fascism (and, more broadly, of propaganda in general.) Hitler (to use the obvious example) tried to make the gentile majority in Germany feel like they were threatened by the Jews, which were one of the most powerless minorities of that time and place. > > -Ben \*\* Hmm- I have checked my dictionary, and i can’t seem to think of the right word here. “Ironic”? No, no quite. “Hypocrisy”? Hmm, maybe. Anyone want to help me out here? 😃 Christians are not “persecuted” in this country- they(we) are in the majority so it is hard to be persecuted when you outnumber everyone. However, there are intolerant folks everywhere- and one of the favorite things of bigots to be intolerant over is religion. Certainly, despite JCs constant pleas to be tolerant- there are far too many intolerant Christians. However, intolerance & bigotry is not a monopoly of the majority. There are many folks who are intolerant of ALL religion- and of course the the biggest target here is Christians. Yosemitebabe was clearly targeted for that reason. There are minority religions who have members who are just as “holier than thou” than the biggest baddest fundie in the Ozarks. And they are intolerant of all other faiths: biggest target- Christianity. So- Christians do get their share of intolerance- but hardly persecution. Overall, despite JC’s “Word”- i would say that Christians dish out more intolerance than we take. But that does not excuse or make right ANY bigotry. Here on the SDMB Christians are in the minority. So- sometimes it does seem like we are “persecuted”. But again, i think not- there is a lot of intolerance for ALL faith here- and Christianity is just the biggest target. Not that intolerance is rampant, or even common; it is not- but it exists, and thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target. Of course, some Sects, such as the Southern Baptists, and other intolerant “Fundies” do deserve a “verbal spanking” now & then, i will admit. I have even helped administer same. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/127 "2001-02-22T08:24:03Z")
Yes, I am totally exhausted by the whole thing! My experience was rather unique. The boss actually kind of _liked_ me, for the most part, because I was reliable and worked other unappealing days and hours. She did _not_ want me to quit - I am convinced that it was not her intent to drive me away. (She was pretty shook up after I quit.) She was not trying to screw me over just because she hated me, or because she was a total flaming b-tch about everything and everyone. She just didn’t think church was a “good enough” reason to **honor** my Sundays off. She had some sort of thing about that. And I use the words “ **honor** my Sundays off” because I was hired with the understanding that I had the day off. Sigh. I just felt the need to repeat that once again! But Satan is right about one thing - I should (and I think I will) start a thread about bosses trying to put a guilt trip about your days off. Now, I hasten to add that such a situation is different than what happened with the aforementioned boss. For instance, my current bosses are not attempting to _force_ me to work my weekends, they are making no attempts like that. They’ll just try to _manipulate and guilt_ me into giving up my weekends. They’ll imply that since I am not doing anything “important”, why don’t I give up my weekend? And such a rant should really be its own thread! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/128 "2001-02-22T08:29:47Z")
Oh my! I submit my post and two substantial posts snuck in ahead of me! Oh well… ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/129 "2001-02-22T10:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > > \*\*Now that I think about it, I don’t know anyone _personally_ that has ever been through _actual_ persecution. I’ve only read about it regarding the church in China, et al… \*\* So we won’t be hearing anything more about it then? \*\* > [@](#): > > Again, I never called it ‘persecution’ per se, but it was clearly harassment and expressing an anti-Christian sentiment toward me. \*\* Which sucks, and I would have stuck up for you if I’d have been there. However, we are in a thread about persecution, which is, as you already admitted, not the same thing. > [@](#): > > \*\*I should have mentioned this before…it wasnt just the Wed PM thing, she harassed me in general too. \*\* Yep. Asshole boss. > [@](#): > > \*\*So, in your definition of ‘persecution’, it has to be pretty widespread. I can actually see your point. In fact, it’s true. I can’t think of any season of genuine persecution in church history that wasn’t very widespread. \*\* Well, in the history, there was a TON of persecution. Check out what the Church did to Jews throughout history, or are you unaware of the total subjugation of God’s Chosen People at the hands of Christians who said convert, move or die for centuries? And I would say that The Crusades are the definition of persecution here. But in the here and now? Yeah, different kettle of fish. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I would like a citation of someone here telling either Polycarp or RTFirefly, two Christians here of long standing, that they were hated becausxe they were Christian. > > \*\*I don’t know of any, but that’s not what I said. I said: > “this message board is a prime example. The hatred and scorn shown toward Christianity here is rather brazen.” \*\* Right, and as I said, show me how this is true. I want cites. Oh, you have some? Let’s see… > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In short the God of fundementalism Christian is an asshole. What he was saying was that the Christian God is not one of love. This, while a revelation to you purhaps, is not an uncommon view. Start a thread about it if you don’t want a hijack. In fact, the poster specifically said, “I’m not meaning to attack jenkinsfan or FoG or anyone like them, just the piece of shit God that they believe in.” This tells me that he was NOT insulting you. Just God. And you know what? That’s between him and God. > [@](#): > > \*\*Oops! Those are your words Satan ;). \*\* Yes, and what of them? I said specifically that one poster was being a stupid parrot. I even said that Christians are quite welcome in a UU church, but parrots weren’t. Parrots come in all creeds, FoGgy one. Your less-Godly friend the fan of the hack scribe happened to be a Christian one. So, once again, you claim something but the reality is quite different. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ve met _dozens_ of people who believed this way, mostly during my college years. Believe me, not everyone who goes to church is a believer in Christ. \*\* Again, I have yet except in the world of Chick Tracts to see anyone who has ever uttered the wqords “I can sin all I want and God will forgive me.” Ever. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Your boldest claim on the other thread wwas that sex on TV is a form of persecution. And in spite of the fact that everyone showed you that this was not the case at all, you still refuse to believe the evidence right in front of your face. > > \*\*Heh … as usual, a little twisting there Satan. Never called it ‘persecution’, that’s your word. \*\* No, in fact what happened is that people asked you to show evidence for your claims of persecution, your only response was television fare. That is exactly what helped start this whole thread. You made claims, did not have the evidence to back them up (and I guess what you just said above was admitting that it wasn’t evidence anyway), and now _I_ am twisting words? > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m not quite sure how you think you provided ‘evidence’ that this was _not_ true! I realize some opinions were thrown around, but that’s different. \*\* Opinions backed with evidence. Not your strong point, as we all know. After all, you just admitted that you couldn’t back your opinion with any. > [@](#): > > \*\*No, as I’ve already stated, the Bible merely confirms what we already experience. Nice theory, but I’m afraid it’s not accurate. \*\* No, I stand by it. Unless you are prepared to tell me that you DON’T believe in the Bible literally word-for-word (which would go against everything you have shown of yourself). Because if you take that passage literally correct, it says that if you believe in me, you will be persecuted. And even if you play ignorant, it doesn’t take a big leap in logic to say that if people believe in the book literally, and there’s a passage which says you will be persecuted, you can be damn sure that they will find a way to make persecution out of nothing, like an asshole boss, purhaps. > [@](#): > > \*\*Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted. Maybe they are! I’m not at all ruling it out, I’ve just not heard of it. \*\* I read that China has done its share of persecuting a slew of religious beliefs. They certainly have done quite a bit to raise the ire of Humanists (not a religion, per se, but a belief system nonetheless), that I can state for sure. If anyone wants to dig up cites to show persecution of other religions, please do. I’ll find some if I can myself. > [@](#): > > \*\*I linked to some cases in which a Christian _won_ the case. The point of giving you those links was simply that the harassment occurred in the first place that forced a trial to have to occur. \*\* Actually, many of those cases are pending. And also, if you want to show persecution, it would have been the other way around: The court cases would have all been lost. > [@](#): > > \*\*But as I said to yosimitebabe, it doesn’t matter how much evidence I give you, I have the feeling you _will_ find something about it to water it down. \*\* Yeah right. And I guess the two other posters who also took them on one at a time are also just watering it down, huh. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **As for the link you provided to the awful story about the atheist who was attacked by Christians … I would like to request what I asked for either in the other thread or this one. I’m not even sure it was you Satan but someone linked to it. Could you provide an _independent_ source for this story? I’m not saying it’s not true, just that this article is by _the person_ it allegedly happened to.** Well, all of the man’s credentials are right there. How hard is it to get in touch with the school he teaches at and ask him yourself? Oh, and as for you **yosemitebabe** , sorry if I was coming up harsh. I believe you that you don’t feel this is persecution. It’s just that between you posting in a persecution thread about something that you say isn’t persecution to back up something someone else said (FoGgy) when he said later that it’s not persecution, well, it boggles the mind, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/130 "2001-02-22T13:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by FriendofGod_: > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Satan:\*I would even give you persecution in other countries today, as long as you give me that this same persecution happens to people of all faiths in many of those countries as well, making it RELIGIOUS persecution, not specifically Christian. > > Uh, I’m not asking you to “give” me anything. And I’m certainly not going to “give” you something I have no proof of. Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted. Maybe they are! I’m not at all ruling it out, I’ve just not heard of it. \*\* Do you ever, ever, **ever** read a newspaper? I mean, EVER?! You’ve **never** heard of another religious group in China being persecuted? Do you live in a **veal crate**? How can a person of even limited intelligence who sees the news at all make such a claim? One of the biggest stories of the past year in the news, one closely watched by human rights observers and civil libertarians, has been the persecution of the Falun Gong cult by the Chinese government. China is on a quest to **wipe them out**. Anything that might be happening to Christians _pales_ in comparison to what’s happening to Falun Gong. Their chief of religious affairs [called Falun Gong a “poisonous tumor.”](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010220/wl/hong_kong_banned_sect_4.html) They’ve been [arresting followers](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010220/wl/religion_china_dc_7.html) and drafting laws specifically to prevent Falun Gong activities. They’ve officially banned Falun Gong. Five of its members [allegedly set themselves on fire](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010123/wl/religion_china_dc_3.html) in Tianenmen Square on Jan. 23, although Falun Gong claims that they were not members and their sect forbids suicides. Another member [burned himself to death](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010216/wl/religion_china_dc_4.html) on Feb. 16. Amnesty International has [accused China of torturing and murdering](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA170042001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CCHINA) Falun Gong members (among others). Never heard of any cases, indeed. Wake the hell up already. Get your news from somebody other than James Dobson and the rest of your fundie pals, because they are **liars**. They do **not** tell you what is going on the world. I think Ben’s nailed it–they give you pornography. This has been all over the papers and newswires for a year, and yet you’ve never heard of it. Maybe if you didn’t deliberately choose to make yourself ignorant, and live in a cultural vacuum devoid of anything resembling actual information, you would not appear so foolish when you say things like this. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/131 "2001-02-22T13:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > **Here on the SDMB Christians are in the minority.** \>\>\>\>yawn\<\<\<\< Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/132 "2001-02-22T13:56:54Z")
I might add that we may add the Turkic Muslims of China’s far West to the list of persecuted religious minorities. Although, of course, there is a strong political element in this. And should we forget the Tibetans? Surely we can include them in part in the religious rubric. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/133 "2001-02-22T21:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\* > Hmm- I have checked my dictionary, and i can’t seem to think of the right word here. “Ironic”? No, no quite. “Hypocrisy”? Hmm, maybe. Anyone want to help me out here? 😃 \*\* Ironic how? > [@](#): > > \*\* > And they are intolerant of all other faiths: biggest target- Christianity. \*\* Evidence, please? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Here on the SDMB Christians are in the minority. \*\* Evidence, please? > [@](#): > > \*\* > So- sometimes it does seem like we are “persecuted”. \*\* How does this logically follow from the antecedent? > [@](#): > > \*\* > But again, i think not- there is a lot of intolerance for ALL faith here- \*\* Evidence, please? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Not that intolerance is rampant, or even common; \*\* Funny, I thought you just said there was a lot of it here. > [@](#): > > \*\* > it is not- but it exists, and thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target. \*\* You said “thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target” more than once, but somehow, it never seems to logically connect to anything you’ve said. How does the existence of intolerance logically lead to Christians being the biggest target? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/134 "2001-02-22T21:31:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > …there is a lot of intolerance for ALL faith here- and Christianity is just the biggest target. Not that intolerance is rampant, or even common; it is not- but it exists, and thus, Christians tend to be the biggest target. Of course, some Sects, such as the Southern Baptists, and other intolerant “Fundies” do deserve a “verbal spanking” now & then, i will admit. I have even helped administer same. Oh, this is just _way_ too hypocritically funny for words! “Oh, woe is me, for I am but a devout Christian, and us saints are persecuted and harassed on all sides by bigots and other intolerant people, who find us to be the biggest targets around! Please, let’s all be friends and stop the hatred – except for those Sothern Baptists, fundamentalists, and other ‘sects’ (meaning not _real_ Christians like myself), those guys **deserve** to be thrashed, and I’ll be glad to help!” Sheesh. :rolleyes: This is precisely why I’m an atheist… ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/135 "2001-02-22T21:42:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > Oh, this is just _way_ too hypocritically funny for words! > > “Oh, woe is me, for I am but a devout Christian, and us saints are persecuted and harassed on all sides by bigots and other intolerant people, who find us to be the biggest targets around! Please, let’s all be friends and stop the hatred – except for those Sothern Baptists, fundamentalists, and other ‘sects’ (meaning not _real_ Christians like myself), those guys **deserve** to be thrashed, and I’ll be glad to help!” > > Sheesh. :rolleyes: This is precisely why I’m an atheist… > \*\* Thank you, I could not have asked for a better example…well, mabe a better example, but this one is so fast & on target. Why debate when your opponents make your points for you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/136 "2001-02-22T22:08:41Z")
Daniel, I’ll make you a deal: If you can provide evidence that, among active posters – not even all registered members, but just active posters – Christians constitute a minority, I will march myself down to the nearest McDonald’s and consume 2 Big Macs in your honor. If you cannot, you will make a $10 donation (a little more than the cost of 2 Big Mac value meals, I presume) to HSUS in your own name. What do you say? Willing to put your money where your mouth is? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/137 "2001-02-22T22:20:38Z")
**FoG:** _Tell you what, China is probably the biggest hotbed of legitimate persecution toward Christians in the world today. If you believe that what you said is true, find out if other religious groups are equally persecuted._ !! Gee, **FoG** , I’m feeling ignored! 😉 I was the one who pointed out a few pages back (maybe it was at the end of the first “Movie that might change your life” thread, come to think of it) that religious repression in China is directed not only at Christians but at the Falun Gong, among others (though **pld** has done a much nicer job of documenting it). Here is the [report of the International Coalition for Religious Freedom](http://www.religiousfreedom.com/wrpt/rptindex.htm) on religious repression in China, with documentation of persecution not only of Christians but of Buddhists and Muslims as well. You may also wish to check out the same organization’s [Religious Freedom World Report](http://www.religiousfreedom.com/wrpt/rptindex.htm), a country-by-country analysis of government support for freedom of religion. I would estimate that Islamic theocracies and totalitarian Communist states tend to be most repressive, but as I pointed out before, in most cases they are attempting to quash **all** religious activity not promoted by the state, rather than engaging in specifically anti-Christian vendettas. The same tendency to repression is seen in many majority-Christian countries (e.g., in Latin America and Africa) which officially discriminate against groups like the Unification Church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/138 "2001-02-22T23:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Daniel, I’ll make you a deal: If you can provide evidence that, among active posters – not even all registered members, but just active posters – Christians constitute a minority . . . Just out of idle curiousity, how could he (or anyone) actually do that? I mean, what constitutes an “active poster”? How do we figure out who the “active posters” are? What about people whose religions are unknown? I mean, it’s not like we had to register religious preference before joining. Without placing bets on it, I confess that my WAG is also that Christians are out-numbered around here, though I wouldn’t be overly surprised to find that I am wrong. Maybe we could just unscientifically take a flier at it. Just off the top of my head: Christians: Poly, DITWD, me, TechChick, Strainger, FOG, Tris. Nons: Kimstu, David B., Eve, Phil, Exprix, Hastur, MattMcl, Zev, Chaim. I know I’m forgetting zillions of people but cut me some slack – I’ve given this about two minutes’ worth of thought. So you all pitch in and help out here. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/139 "2001-02-23T00:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Daniel, I’ll make you a deal: If you can provide evidence that, among active posters – not even all registered members, but just active posters – Christians constitute a minority . . . > > Just out of idle curiousity, how could he (or anyone) actually do that?\*\* That’s up to him to figure out. It’s his assertion, and I highly suspect that he’s wrong. I want to see him, for once, unequivocally back it up. My suggestion would be to post a thread in IMHO or MPSIMS, state the terms of the bet, and ask people to simply post their religious self-identification. If nothing else, if they don’t like me, they have the chance to make me eat a hamburger by lying! It’ll all be academic anyway, because DITWD will say he can’t prove it, but he just knows it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/140 "2001-02-23T02:07:11Z")
FoG said: > [@](#): > > Again, I never called it ‘persecution’ per se, but it was clearly harassment and expressing an anti-Christian sentiment toward me. To which Satan responded: > [@](#): > > Which sucks, and I would have stuck up for you if I’d have been there. However, we are in a thread about persecution, which is, as you already admitted, not the same thing. Satan? SATAN?!? You’ve just spent half this thread denying that what FoG and Yosemitebabe were dealing with was anything other than an “asshole boss.” Now suddenly you would have “stuck up for” FoG? Can we assume then that you really were acting like that just to spite these people this whole time? I don’t agree with a lot of the things FoG says, and I also agree that he has a tendency to make claims with no facts to back them up, but he’s a helluva lot more humble than you are and HE APOLOGIZES WHEN HE IS WRONG, and area in which you have proven yourself to be severely lacking. FoG gave up his “persecution” claim many posts ago, whatever the sign on the thread might say. I understand why his original claims made you so angry, but it’s been over for a while now. Lighten up, dude. > [@](#): > > Oh, and as for you yosemitebabe, sorry if I was coming up harsh. I believe you that you don’t feel this is persecution. It’s just that between you posting in a persecution thread about something that you say isn’t persecution to back up something someone else said (FoGgy) when he said later that it’s not persecution, well, it boggles the mind, y’know? Is this an apology? As for the debate over whether Christians are in the minority on the SDMB, I agree that this is almost impossible to prove or disprove. Christians are not like “Wiccans” or “Hare Krishnas,” whose numbers are small enough that you either are or you aren’t. As I have said earlier in this thread, there are a lot of people in this country who are Christian in the cultural sense even if they do not refer to themselves as “Christian.” Perhaps the only reasonable criteria is to refer to as “Christian” whos posters who would agree to being called that. But how? A thread titled “All SDMB Christians must register here?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826.md?page=8)