# Christians--the persecuted majority **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826 "2001-02-17T00:31:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/141 "2001-02-23T03:03:14Z")
Before someone creates a SDMB registry, I’d like to recommend that denny and daniel first arrive at a mutually agreeable definition of “Christian”. I’d phrase the question as, “Do you identify yourself as a Christian?” Or maybe, “In five words or less, what is your religious preference?” In 1990, 86% of the US identified themselves as Christian (7.5% called themselves nonreligious; 7/10 of a percent were agnostic). In a 2000 Harris poll, limited only to internet users (and therefore blatantly nonrepresentative) 72% of the sample was Christian, while 7.1% was agnostic or athiest. Source: [Adherents.com](http://Adherents.com) ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/142 "2001-02-23T03:54:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyomara \* > > \*\*Satan? SATAN?!? \*\* I heard you the first time, thanks. > [@](#): > > \*\*You’ve just spent half this thread denying that what FoG and Yosemitebabe were dealing with was anything other than an “asshole boss.” Now suddenly you would have “stuck up for” FoG? \*\* Um… Yes? If I see someone dealing with a boss who is clearly being an asshole, I would do what I can to keep things fair. I once lost a job for such a thing… No skin off my ass, she was an asshole. But I probably could have continued working there (at least a little longer) had I stayed out of the fact that she was being a total douchebag for no reason to a guy there whose only crime was that she didn’t like his brother. Oh, and why does someone have to be persecuted for me to feel sympathy, empathy or generally say “that sucks” and want to do something about it? You made a few leaps of illogic here. > [@](#): > > \*\*Can we assume then that you really were acting like that just to spite these people this whole time? \*\* No. > [@](#): > > \*\*I don’t agree with a lot of the things FoG says, and I also agree that he has a tendency to make claims with no facts to back them up, but he’s a helluva lot more humble than you are and HE APOLOGIZES WHEN HE IS WRONG, and area in which you have proven yourself to be severely lacking. \*\* This is said in a thread that I apologized to someone?!? > [@](#): > > \*\*Is this an apology? \*\* Yes, it is. The words “I’m sorry” would generally indicate this. Whether or not **yosemitebabe** accepts it or not is up to her. I hope she does… But according to you, I do not apologize, so I could see how these two bits of FACTS you seem to know might contradict each other. Maybe one of these “facts,” you might wish to reconsider in light of new evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/143 "2001-02-23T04:15:59Z")
I’m sorry, Satan. I was mistaken. I thought that you were finally admitting that what Yosemitebabe and FoG experienced was DISCRIMINATION, but apparently you were ready to stand up for them only in the sense that they were having trouble with an asshole boss. Which, mind you, is no less noble by any means. But it doesn’t mean you have admitted that it was religious discrimination. And since your posts have been so stubborn, I originally read your post with a hostile tone, and the “boggles the mind” part of your apology made it sound like one of those “I’m sorry, but I’m not sorry” apologies. But on second read, I realize there is no such hostile tone. So…excuse me. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/144 "2001-02-23T05:10:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyomara \* > > \*\*I’m sorry, Satan. I was mistaken. \*\* Apology accepted. > [@](#): > > \*\*I thought that you were finally admitting that what Yosemitebabe and FoG experienced was DISCRIMINATION, but apparently you were ready to stand up for them only in the sense that they were having trouble with an asshole boss. \*\* Why would I admit something which isn’t true, in my opinion? Actually, the key word is “persecution.” I will admit that they were discriminated against, but a few ranbdom acts of discrimination does not make persecution, and frankly, both of them seemed to agree with this. > [@](#): > > \*\*And since your posts have been so stubborn \*\* Sometimes I’m stubborn, sometimes I’m not. You were wrong with your previous post, and now you have, with the benefit of my post, realized this. > [@](#): > > \*\*I originally read your post with a hostile tone, and the “boggles the mind” part of your apology made it sound like one of those “I’m sorry, but I’m not sorry” apologies. But on second read, I realize there is no such hostile tone. \*\* There wasn’t one intended. > [@](#): > > \*\*So…excuse me. \*\* The lavatory is the second door on the left… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/145 "2001-02-23T06:59:59Z")
I accept your apology, Satan, but I am still confused. It seemed for all the world to me that you were unwilling to concede that my boss was motivated by anything other than basic, generic assholism. That you saw no specific anti-religious motivations - just “asshole boss”. Persecution - discrimination - we can argue about the terms - to me, the thing I was arguing about what that my boss had a clear and decided thing against _religion_. It appeared that you were consistently unwilling to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/146 "2001-02-23T07:38:12Z")
You’re just wrong again.😉 I said: > [@](#): > > I thought that you were finally admitting that what Yosemitebabe and FoG experienced was DISCRIMINATION, but apparently you were ready to stand up for them only in the sense that they were having trouble with an asshole boss. To which you responded: > [@](#): > > Why would I admit something which isn’t true, in my opinion? Actually, the key word is “persecution.” I will admit that they were discriminated against, but a few random acts of discrimination does not make persecution, and frankly, both of them seemed to agree with this. Perhaps I am mis-recollecting, but Yosemitebabe said repeatedly that she wasn’t sure it amounted to “persecution” per se (in fact, I think she has stopped short of even calling it "discrimination, instead taking the even more stable position of “whatever it was, it was about religion”), and even FoG gave up the “persecution” label posts ago, so why are we still talking about it? “Persecution” hasn’t been the key word for a while now. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/147 "2001-02-23T07:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Daniel, I’ll make you a deal: If you can provide evidence that, among active posters – not even all registered members, but just active posters – Christians constitute a minority . . . > > Without placing bets on it, I confess that my WAG is also that Christians are out-numbered around here, > > Christians: Poly, DITWD, me, TechChick, Strainger, FOG, Tris. > > Nons: Kimstu, David B., Eve, Phil, Exprix, Hastur, MattMcl, Zev, Chaim.\*\* More- Christians- Wildest Bill, Jenkinsfan,. Non- Gaudere, Satan, Pld, Ben, rjung, Izzy, Oldscratch, czarcasm, CKDext. It was a WAG, based upon observations only- and I will admit, mostly GD postings. Heck, MPSIMS could be a hotbed of Fundamentalism & I would barely notice. Certainly, however, the % of Christians here is not = to the % of Christians in America. Now- when some Christian does start a faith-based thread, it seems there are a LOT more “antis” than “pros”. But, we do have a small sample- the Mods. So- are any mods Christians? I know we have 3 atheists(?), and one Jew. Are any Christian? If the % of Christians amoung the mods is over 50%, I will admit I am wrong. If it is much lower… well? Sure, it s not a great smple, but we can’t deny they are active. So… Arnold, Uncle, Coldy, etc- want to let us know? It would also seem that our % of Observant Jews is a bit higher than the general US Pop. But- satan & rjung- you seem to be denying that intolerance against Christains exists in this country. Why? Do you just think it never occurs- that the hard-core atheists & the “fundies” of other religions are never intolerant against Christians? Or- perhaps it is that the “majority” can “never be dicriminated against”? Or, perhaps you feel that hatred towards Christians is justified, and thus not “bigotry”? These are questions, not accusations, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/148 "2001-02-23T08:49:35Z")
Sheesh! You forgot to put me in the “Christian” list, Daniel! And Guinistasia (sp?) and Thea Logica are Christians too. Has anyone mentioned Czarcasm (formerly Slythe?) He certainly belongs in the “atheist” camp. And did anyone mention pldennison? It is just my WAG as well, but if Christians are not outnumbered here - it’s pretty close. The “feel” I get is that there are at least slightly more atheists or non-Christians. But it’s just my “feeling”, and not worth a lot! ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/149 "2001-02-23T08:52:00Z")
Yeah, someone mentioned Czarcasm! (In the post above mine!) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/150 "2001-02-23T13:29:53Z")
DITWD, here at the SDMB, we don’t “wild ass guess”-we find out! 🙂 Over in IMHO, there are three different polls being conducted: 1. One for Christians 2. One for Non-Christians 3. One for the still undecided So far, it looks as if there are more Christians then there are of any other denomination. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/151 "2001-02-23T13:31:07Z")
**flowbark** : Please, I beg you, don’t call me “denny.” If you must call me anything besides my screen name, please call me Phil. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\* > > But, we do have a small sample- the Mods. So- are any mods Christians? I know we have 3 atheists(?), and one Jew. Are any Christian? If the % of Christians amoung the mods is over 50%, I will admit I am wrong. If it is much lower… well? Sure, it s not a great smple, but we can’t deny they are active. So… Arnold, Uncle, Coldy, etc- want to let us know?\*\* A sample size of, what, 13, to decide this question? Uh-uh. Not only is that not a representative or reasonably-sized sample, it isn’t random; Moderators are chosen by Zotti and, I assume, existing Mods. There’s no reason to believe that Christians should represent 90%, 50%, or even 10%. How about we start a thread in MPSIMS, which absolutely gets the most activity at the SDMB, called “Settle a bet on religion between Danielinthewolvesden and pldennison,” and ask people to post their religious self-identification. We’ll also include the terms of the bet. If we can get at least 200 unique responses, we’ll consider that a valid sample. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/152 "2001-02-23T13:50:04Z")
I have to feel a little neglected that I’m left off the list of Outspoken Atheists at the SDMB. It’s kinda like being left off President Nixon’s Enemies List! \ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/153 "2001-02-23T14:38:04Z")
I can’t believe you would make a bet like that, Phil. Nobody wants to see you eat hamburgers ya know. But then, its not very objective. It depends on what you and everyone “means” by Christian. Or “active poster” also. But I hope you win. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/154 "2001-02-23T16:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > > **I can’t believe you would make a bet like that, Phil. > Nobody wants to see you eat hamburgers ya know.** Phil, I agree. Certainly not at McDonalds! Even I don’t eat their hamburgers… Tell you what: You ain’t gonna lose this bat, I don’t think. But if you do, please get a good steak somewhere? OR at LEAST go to a decent steakhouse and get the burger there? The cows will understand, Phil… The cows will forgive… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/155 "2001-02-23T19:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > > Sheesh. :rolleyes: This is precisely why I’m an atheist… > > \*\* > > Thank you, I could not have asked for a better example…well, mabe a better example, but this one is so fast & on target.\*\* Hey, it’s how I treat everybody – you do something stupid, I mock you. Your religion has nothing to do with it, despite how much you may wish it did. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/156 "2001-02-23T19:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > rjung- you seem to be denying that intolerance against Christains exists in this country. I never said any such thing. In fact, in any group of six million people (or whatever the current population of the United States today), I’m sure you can find _somebody_ who is intolerant towards just about any group you want to imagine. On the other hand, I _am_ rejecting the idea that there is an **organized, sizable,** and **coordinated** group that’s out to harass or intimidate Christians wherever they are (at the very least, I’m surprised I never got any of their recruitment junk mail 🙂 ). The notion that there’s a secret cabal of Hollywood Producers who are out to portray Christians in a bad light is tin-hat-alien-mind-control nutzo cuckoo stuff to me; ditto the suggestion that there’s a Secular Humanists, Inc. organization, or anything else. As a contrasting point, there _are_ numerous organizations and groups who are out to harass and intimidate people just because they’re atheists, homosexuals, or members of whatever minority group you want. I’m sure even you can name several of them at the drop of a hat. The depressing thing is that many of these groups use religion as an excuse for their boorish behavior, even as they claim to be teaching love and tolerance. So, to summarize: 1. Are there individuals intolerant towards Christians? Sure. You’ll find jerks and \*ssholes of any and all persuasions. 2. Are there groups and organizations plotting intolerance towards Christians? I haven’t seen any convincing evidence that they exist. 3. Are there individuals intolerant towards atheists/homosexuals/other non-Christian groups? Sure. See point #1, above. 4. Are there groups and organizations plotting intolerance towards atheists/homosexuals/other non-Christian groups? Dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn straight. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/157 "2001-02-23T22:38:52Z")
rjung- “organized” persecution of Christians? Never made any such claim (altho perhaps some of the radical muslim groups would qualify, but they are small). And certainly some of the Secular Humanist have a great deal of fun “mocking” Christians & their faith. “Persecuton”? No- not in the USA. “Intolerance”?- certainly. Again- sice there are so many more christians, clearly Christians do more “presecuting” than non-Christians do. As to our sample (I am not going to call it a “bet” as there was no agreed upon terms first)- I am going to go along with Czarcasm’s suggestion, but add in the aformentioned “well-known” posters. There are a few reasons: 1. He is the Mod in charge of the “polling” thread, and 2 No-one can say he is biased in my favor. A “scientific sample”? Hardly, but one which will do for now. Whatever the results, all they can say is “It SEEMS like there are more… than… here on the SDMB.” So far, the results are- CHRISTIANS: “well known”=11, + posted=59. However, over 50% of the “well-knowns” posted in IMHO (6), so the total is = 65, or so. “NONs”: “well known”=18+ posted =69 (oddly only 3 of the 'well-known" Nons posted there)= 84 or so. So far, the “NONs” well outnumber the Christians. However, I will not expect Pld to eat that burger, as we have “no bet”. A simple: “Well, you SEEM to be right, based upon an un-scientific sample” will suffice. Certainly the SBMB is not running some 80% Christian as the outside world is. Let’s give it another 24 hours, Hmm? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/158 "2001-02-24T01:02:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > **As to our sample (I am not going to call it a “bet” as there was no agreed upon terms first)** Of course not, since you traipsed over and started a thread before we had a chance to discuss it. > [@](#): > > So far, the “NONs” well outnumber the Christians. However, I will not expect Pld to eat that burger, as we have “no bet”. A simple: “Well, you SEEM to be right, based upon an un-scientific sample” will suffice. Ha! Fat frigging chance, Weasel Man. If you want to do this **right** , let’s do it, with mutually agreed upon terms. Even knowing that the current results do not favor my position, I am willing to go forward with this bet. But don’t you dare attempt to invoke your Super Weasel Powers to claim that you somehow investigated the question, and I refused to concede to your conclusion. Come on, Danny. One thread, with the terms of the bet stated for all to see, with all interested posters weighing in. Put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/159 "2001-02-24T06:04:28Z")
I see that someone is playing with statistics to “prove” that Christians are in the minority. Are you trying to say that Christians are one group, and all others are lumped together in another group? I’m not sure that Wiccans, Jews, Budhists, and Atheists can be counted as a single “majority”. If the posters are divided into groups according to their respective beliefs, it seems to me that Christians have a clear majority. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2001, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826/160 "2001-02-24T08:20:27Z")
Pld- I was starting to think you could actually 'debate", and not just attack folks. I was wrong. Here is a thread which shows my position: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthreads.php?threadid=57835](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthreads.php?threadid=57835) Note complete lack of “super-weasle powers”. (You DO know somebody else started the “who is a Christian thread?” first, right? Check my OP and the time stamp, if not.) Czarcasm- that is what is commonly meant by a “majority”- Christians are likely close to being a PLURALITY. But I do thank you for your suggestion re the poll- it seems like it won’t convince the “other guys”, but it will convince Jodi & I our “WAGs” have a bit of evidence behind them- or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-the-persecuted-majority/54826.md?page=9)