# Christians Vs. Homosexuals ?? What's up with this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027 "2003-07-12T20:03:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/41 "2003-07-13T17:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jesleigh \* > \*\*13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. > > That is the verse. There are other, but they all say basically the same thing. I don’t see how you can argue with the basic meaning of the verse. The archaic defination of “lie with” is ‘To have sexual intercourse with’ (I checked two dictionaries). People have been twisting the Bible to suit there own needs for centuries, so I really shouldn’t be surprised. \*\* Actually, I think looking at the wording of this passage tells us a great deal about the people of the time. Notice the phrasing, there’s no single one word that directly translates as _homosexual_ or even _homosexuality_. In order for those ancient, anonymous scribes to get the idea of man-to-man sex across, they used elaborate phrasing. This, to me, would indicate that the concept of homosexuals and homosexuality (in the modern sense) was unknown to the ancient Israelites. There wasn’t a single word or phrase that accurately described the person or the act, so they relied on an elaborate phrase. They could only identify that one particular **act** not the whole class of behavior or people it’s associated with in the modern sense. So, while at first the verse seems fairly (ahem) straight-forward, looking at it more deeply shows that it was pointing out something particular to the time and culture of the ancient Israelites rather than eternal _truth_ of God. ---
**Author:** ![hebesphenomegacorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b9e5f3/32.png) [@hebesphenomegacorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hebesphenomegacorona)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/42 "2003-07-13T19:50:24Z")
Christians Vs. Homosexuals ?? What’s up with this? [Let’s see…](http://www.grudge-match.com) ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/43 "2003-07-14T04:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \*This is PURE SLANDER upon my character. Matt slept on the couch that night! Wait a minute, you’ve slept on my couch. Does that mean that according to Leviticus, I can’t have a guy crash on my couch now? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/44 "2003-07-14T05:16:40Z")
**Billdo** , you already did that. I slept on your couch on January 5-6, 2002. However, unless someone can find a “thou shalt not lie with womankind as with mankind” verse, I think you’re off the hook:) ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/45 "2003-07-14T05:19:14Z")
If we start making a list of Doper couches that I’ve slept on, this could get ugly _real_ quick… (there’s seven or eight that I can recall… and then there are a few dopers that have likewise slept on my couch… the SCANDAL!) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/46 "2003-07-14T07:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **Maybe this is being a bit too literal, but remember the group you’re dealing with here is a group that seems to randomly place “figurative/metaphorical” and “literal” as tags around stories and such depending on how it suits their mood.** I felt that this statement was important enough to warrant greater emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/47 "2003-07-14T12:40:28Z")
Another Christian checking in. In fact, a Baptist who also lives in the South but thinks the majority of the SBC policies are idiotic. :eek: For me, personally, it isn’t my call whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Whether I agree or disagree, it is my belief that when Jesus came and was crucified he brought with him a “new law.” This law was to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Now for me, this verse tells me that I am to love everybody. Gay people. Straight people. White people. Black people. Pagans. Atheists. Agnostics. The bitch who cut me off in traffic this morning…you get the idea. 😉 I think gay people should have every right in this country that I am privledged to have. I think the government should stay out of your bedrooms. I think you should be able to marry who you want. I think you should be able to have the same insurance and benfits that me and my husband are entitled to. I honestly make my decisions on who I like and who I don’t like by that individual person. Not their racial group. Not by their sexuality. Not by their religious beliefs or lack thereof. If I don’t like you it is because you are an ass…pure and simple. I am not a Biblical scholar and I don’t profess to be. My hope is that when I make it to heaven that I can look at God and tell Him that I did what I thought He wanted me to do and that I tried my best to love Him with all my heart, soul and strength and that I loved my neighbor as myself. I fail every single day with that first part but I can look in the mirror every morning and have no guilt in saying that I am a person who judges you by your actions and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/48 "2003-07-14T17:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \*13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. > (bolding mine) > > That is one verse that, to many, is a proscription against homosexual intercourse (as those who believe it is a proscription see gay sex).\*\* Of course, once you bold what you did, it’s also possible to interpret it as a prohibition on group sex…if that group sex consists of mixed genders. Are Hebrew and Latin as confusing as English? If so, the possiblities of misinterpretation boggle the mind. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/49 "2003-07-14T17:49:49Z")
Latin has word endings, which in many cases tell you that a word must, or cannot (etc) modify another word. I don’t know about Hebrew. Don’t dare raise that argument, though, with those who believe that the original Bible is actually written in English (despite the fact that what we consider modern-day English is in reality younger than this country). It can get quite hilarious from the POV of a spectator, but if you actually have to reason with one of those people … eh, I wouldn’t recommend trying. It’s like trying to boil water by blowing hot air over it. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/50 "2003-07-14T22:26:08Z")
**Aries** as an Anglo-American, Northern, Episcopalian to a Southern Baptist, you’re my kind of Christian! 😃 You said exactly what I believe, and normally the only person who does that is **Polycarp**! Thank you. CJ ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/51 "2003-07-15T17:55:04Z")
To further complicate this issue, I would like to note that last night I slept on Eonwe’s couch. Some of you might find my actions to be wrong or immoral. To you I say, “Fie on you, senseless bigots! I did no harm!” Despite the fact that some of you consider me no better than a chestnut-haired harlot, I will continue to hold my head high with pride. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/52 "2003-07-15T18:24:20Z")
But you’re our chestnut-haired harlot! ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/53 "2003-07-15T22:21:13Z")
This is true. [hijack] Matt, is there a metro station somewhere close to, say, 6445 Blvd de carie? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/54 "2003-07-15T22:56:09Z")
What **Siege** said. **Aries** , you and **Sauron** epitomize what I can respect in Baptists! Thank you for saying that! And **Andygirl** , will you please stop sleepiung on everybody and his sister’s couch and go crawl into the bed of a girl who will love you and treat you right?!? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/55 "2003-07-16T07:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > [hijack] Matt, is there a metro station somewhere close to, say, 6445 Blvd de carie? [/hijack] That appears to be approximately four blocks west of Plamondon metro. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027/56 "2003-07-18T18:36:57Z")
Well some of them Unitarian Universalist Christians have no problem with the queers… 😉 Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-vs-homosexuals-whats-up-with-this/188027.md?page=2)