# Christians: What if James Cameron DID Find Jesus' Tomb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2007, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581 "2007-02-25T05:35:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/101 "2007-02-26T16:43:15Z")
Bishop N.T. Wright, who is more of a Bible scholar than either Diogenes or I, sums it up- the early Christian were Jews who believed that Jesus was resurrected; Resurrection meant one thing to Jews of that era- dead bodies getting up. Paul’s talking about Jesus & us not being resurrected in a “psychic” (“soulish”, translated “natural”) body but in a “pneumatic” (“spiritual”) body does not deny the physical material nature of the Resurrection, but instead affirms that the body will be immortal & incorruptible, not less than physical but more. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/102 "2007-02-26T16:46:22Z")
[QUOTE=Charlie Tan] OK, I understand you better now. So your previous post just semi-wooshed me. I’m cool with your take on it all. [/QUOTE] Thanks- my point was, Jesus calls for extraordinary self-sacrificial virtue, not just common courtesy & normal rational virtue. If JC is not risen, there’s no real reason to take his extraordinary commands seriously as he has no demonstable authority to make such demands. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/103 "2007-02-26T17:25:51Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] The city of Jerusalem is an interesting case. For the first 150 years or so of Christianity, the entire city was reviled as the Place that had Rejected Christ. No Jews (including early Christians) were allowed within the city walls, and for part of that time, none were even allowed in the land of Judea. It would have been extremely difficult to set up any holy sites in the city during this time, and, in all liklihood, the prevailing attitude of the day would have been against it anyway. [/QUOTE] What on Earth do you mean by the above passage? You really have me confused. 😕 The first 150 years of Christianity (presumably 33 - 183 CE) were an era in which the Christian Church was a small sect with little or no power. The Pagan Roman authorities would not have been bothered by the Crucifixion or the fact that it happened in Jerusalem. Hell, it was they who did it and they did not care a rat’s ass about it. They crucified people all the time, all over the place, at the drop of a hat! Are you not maybe confusing this with the destruction of the Temple and the creation of the Diaspora in 70 CE as a result of the Third Jewish Revolt against Roman rule? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/104 "2007-02-26T18:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Thanks- my point was, Jesus calls for extraordinary self-sacrificial virtue, not just common courtesy & normal rational virtue. If JC is not risen, there’s no real reason to take his extraordinary commands seriously as he has no demonstable authority to make such demands. [/QUOTE] Friar Ted, Let me first explain that there is no common Christian ground between us, since I am a gay person who has lived with another man for 31 years and last year was legally married in Canada. So my beliefs and yours are irreconcilable opposites. But I believe in the principle of keeping my friends close and my enemies closer, so I am a surprisingly avid Biblical scholar. If I can read “Lord of the Rings” and not believe it literally, I can do the same with the Bible. 😃 So just out of curiosity, where exactly does Jesus say we must not “fornicate” outside marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/105 "2007-02-26T20:15:48Z")
Actually, **Valteron** , te me it all makes perfect sense not matter if it’s in the Bible or not. A lot of religions have some kind of initiation rite (to separate \*Us The True People \* from _Them Who Worship False Idols_) and some rules that go against basic human needs and urges. By being chaste, you are proving to yourself and others in your group, congregation, what have you, that you are indeed worthy of being a part of it all. It doesn’t have to make any sense at all, in fact, it’s better if it doesn’t make sense. So the priesthood interpret things in the holy book, the sayings of The Wise Man or read the tea leaves swirling in a cup, and come up with some outlandish demands to separate Us from Them. I have no problem with that or if it’s in the Bible or not. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/106 "2007-02-26T21:02:16Z")
These names were so common it would be hard not to find family tombs with a combination of the names. In fact my mechanic is named Jesus, his mother’s name was Mary, his dad is Joe and his wife is Maria. I never thought that he was the Messiah (although he was able to bring my alternator back from the dead…) But really, with the OP, I would be slightly conflicted but not totally. I’m a Catholic of convenience (bred, wed and dead) who believes in a creator and that Jesus had some great things to teach. Was JC the son of God or a primitive David Blaine, I’m not sure. But He was able to get a lot of people to listen to his message of love and acceptance, shook up the powers that be, pissed off the established bureaucrats and theocrats that finally nailed Him. His words were inspirational and thought-provoking and have been taken to heart by millions over the millennia. The key to Christianity might be his resurrection, but the heart of Christ was what he taught. If he never rose from the dead, he would still be the most influential speaker in history, bigger than Tony Robbins. I would still think his message was wonderful, the nicest things a man could say. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/107 "2007-02-26T21:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The key to Christianity might be his resurrection, but the heart of Christ was what he taught. I am not a church goer. I am one of the confused undecided. I feel that the message should be held as high as, if not higher than the messenger. However, I realise that one of the _key_ tenants of Christianity is the sacrifice that Jesus, himself, made on the behalf of humanity, which is an act and miracle seperate from, but in addition to, the message of good will toward your fellow man. Can you not believe in the Resurrection and self sacrifice of Christ and still be Christian? I am under the impression that the question was settled by some of the early leaders of the Christian Church, and they said “No”, correct? My Opinion on the Original Question, as asked, would be “No, the devout believers would not be detered if the body found in the tomb was declared to be Christ’s.”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/108 "2007-02-26T22:07:01Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Gary Habermas conducted an extensive survey of English, French and German NT scholarship with regard to the empty tomb. He found that [approximately 75% of all the critical scholars accept that there was such a tomb, and that it was found empty](http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005/J_Study_Historical_Jesus_3-2_2005.htm). This was **not** a survey of preachers and Christian apologists, mind you; rather, it was a study of over 1400 publications, dating back to 1975. (German scholarship, for example, is tremendously skeptical when it comes to the Resurrection.) Even skeptics such as Evan Fales and [Robert Greg Cavin](http://www.manavai.com/articles/art6.htm) acknowledge that the tomb existed, and even affirm that the historical evidence suggests that it was found empty. They deny that the Resurrection occurred, but even they accept the empty tomb on historical grounds. [/QUOTE] Gary Habermas is a fundamentalist apologist (self described on both counts) who teaches at Jerry Falwell’s University and is a YEC believer. The conclusions he draws from his “study” (which seem to consist primarily of ticking off scholars as being in favor of empty tomb historicity based on whether or not they ever seem t o accept or support any number of suppositions about it) tend to be disputed the mainstream. Not that I think appeals to authority mean much anyway, and that’s why i haven’t done that in this thread. I’d like to quote Peter Kirby from his piece on the [empty tomb](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_kirby/tomb/introduction.html#N1) > [@](#): > > [1] A list of 20th century writers on the NT, with references to relevant works, who do not believe that the empty tomb story is historically reliable: Gunther Bornkamm (Jesus of Nazareth), Rudolf Bultmann (History of the Synoptic Tradition), Peter Carnley (The Structure of Resurrection Belief), John Dominic Crossan (The Birth of Christianity), Michael Goulder (Resurrection Reconsidered), Hans Grass (Ostergeschehen and Osterberichte), Charles Guignebert (The Christ), Uta Ranke-Heinemann (Putting Away Childish Things), Randel Helms (Gospel Fictions), Herman Hendrickx (Resurrection Narratives), Roy Hoover (Jesus’ Resurrection: Fact or Figment?), Hans Kung (On being a Christian), Alfred Loisy (The Birth of the Christian Religion), Burton Mack (A Myth of Innocence), Willi Marxsen (Jesus and Easter), Gerd Ludemann (What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection), Norman Perrin (The Resurrection according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke), John Shelby Spong (Resurrection: Myth or Reality?), and Rev. John T. Theodore (Who Was Jesus?). A list of other people who doubt that the empty tomb story is historical: Marcus Borg, Gerald Boldock Bostock, Stevan Davies, Maurice Goguel, Helmut Koester, Robert Price, Marianne Sawicki, and Howard M. Teeple. The majority of these twenty-seven writers are professing Christians. While I am not approving the use of an appeal to authority, this incomplete list is provided in order to offset the commonly advanced appeal to authority in favor of the historicity of the empty tomb. Even then, it is superfluous, for the appeal to authority is fallacious from the start. I can’t really say it any better than that. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/109 "2007-02-26T22:20:45Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HUj8hg5CoSw/hqdefault.jpg "Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/110 "2007-02-26T22:22:17Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Bishop N.T. Wright, who is more of a Bible scholar than either Diogenes or I, sums it up- the early Christian were Jews who believed that Jesus was resurrected [/quote] What evidence does Wright present for the asertion that the earliets Christians (meaning the direct followers of Jesus) believed this or claimed it. > [@](#): > > Resurrection meant one thing to Jews of that era- dead bodies getting up. Paul was a Jew who disputed that. > [@](#): > > Paul’s talking about Jesus & us not being resurrected in a “psychic” (“soulish”, translated “natural”) body but in a “pneumatic” (“spiritual”) body does not deny the physical material nature of the Resurrection Excuse me, but that’s exactly what it does. Paul says that what goes into the ground stays in the ground and calls people fools for believing that physical bodies can come back to life. He uses the analogy of sowing seeds (dead bodies) which “regrow” as spiritual bodies. > [@](#): > > but instead affirms that the body will be immortal & incorruptible, not less than physical but more. This doesn’t even make sense. Paul clearly states that resurrected bodies are not physical at all. ---
**Author:** ![Charger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df788c/32.png) [@Charger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charger)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/111 "2007-02-26T22:36:39Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] _DNA tests?_ Who do we compare the DNA _to_? [/QUOTE] When he returns, ask him to pee in a cup. This issue brings up the question of whether Jesus left behind a corpse. I grew up hearing the story that Jesus returned and ascended in spiritual form and left a corpse in the tomb. The stone having been rolled away for unknown reasons. The holes in his feet and hands? Well those were there to show that he was Jesus, and that he was supernatural. The guy walked on water, so keeping holes in his spiritual hands isn’t much of a feat, but he did have reason to have them. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/112 "2007-02-26T23:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] What on Earth do you mean by the above passage? You really have me confused. 😕 The first 150 years of Christianity (presumably 33 - 183 CE) were an era in which the Christian Church was a small sect with little or no power. The Pagan Roman authorities would not have been bothered by the Crucifixion or the fact that it happened in Jerusalem. Hell, it was they who did it and they did not care a rat’s ass about it. They crucified people all the time, all over the place, at the drop of a hat! Are you not maybe confusing this with the destruction of the Temple and the creation of the Diaspora in 70 CE as a result of the Third Jewish Revolt against Roman rule? [/QUOTE] I’m talking about Christian attitudes; not Roman. See my post #84 for support. And I should have said “the 150 years following the destruction of the city.” ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/113 "2007-02-26T23:34:54Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Excuse me, but that’s exactly what it does. Paul says that what goes into the ground stays in the ground and calls people fools for believing that physical bodies can come back to life. He uses the analogy of sowing seeds (dead bodies) which “regrow” as spiritual bodies. [/QUOTE] Where do you find this? I am not arguing the point, I just want to know… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/114 "2007-02-26T23:50:37Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] Where do you find this? I am not arguing the point, I just want to know… [/QUOTE] 1 Corinthians 15. Start at about verse 34. ---
**Author:** ![Homo\_Ergaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Homo\_Ergaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homo_Ergaster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/115 "2007-02-27T00:19:37Z")
Well, to the OP: If, by methods unknown to me, it were proven that the body in the tomb was THE Jesus then I would stop being Christian, period. Most Christians who take theuir religion seriously would do the same. This is not something like “what if the Sermon of the Beatitudes happended in three occasions and not in one?” kind of thing, it is THE thing. No resurrection, no Christianity. Paul says is (as another poster mentioned). Of course some Christian will come up with stupid explanations, but I can’t see the Big Christian denominations such as Catholicism, Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists to be able to salvage Christianity. At most, some Buddhism kind of thing, with a Teacher-but-not-God sorta thing. This Catholic would quick his Sunday job- ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/116 "2007-02-27T00:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] 1 Corinthians 15. Start at about verse 34. [/QUOTE] That does not at all read to me as if he’s describing Jesus. It sounds as if he’s describing what being “raised” means to the rest of us schmucks, not the singular resurrection of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/117 "2007-02-27T00:23:49Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] That does not at all read to me as if he’s describing Jesus. It sounds as if he’s describing what being “raised” means to the rest of us schmucks, not the singular resurrection of Jesus. [/QUOTE] Where does he say there’s a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Homo\_Ergaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Homo\_Ergaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homo_Ergaster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/118 "2007-02-27T00:29:40Z")
quit ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/119 "2007-02-27T00:43:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Where does he say there’s a difference? [/QUOTE] Where does he say they’re the same? Seriously, I leave it up anyone who reads this. I think a simple reading of this does not lead to what you think it concludes. Your cite does not AT ALL read to me as if he’s describing Jesus’s resurrection. It reads as if he’s answering the question, “What does it mean when the scriptures say that the faithful will be raised up? Does that mean my corpse will be dug up and trotted out before the Lord? Ewww!” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581/120 "2007-02-27T01:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Where does he say they’re the same? Seriously, I leave it up anyone who reads this. I think a simple reading of this does not lead to what you think it concludes. Your cite does not AT ALL read to me as if he’s describing Jesus’s resurrection. It reads as if he’s answering the question, “What does it mean when the scriptures say that the faithful will be raised up? Does that mean my corpse will be dug up and trotted out before the Lord? Ewww!” [/QUOTE] What’s actually going on is that the Corinthians are skeptical about the possibility of their own resurrections because they don’t believe that physical bodies can be brought back to life. Paul calls them “fools” for thinking of resurrection as referring to physical bodies. Now these new Christian converts supposedly would have known all about Jesus’ physical resurrection, so why would they be skeptical that God could do it for them? If you want to make the _ad hoc_ argument that Jesus was a special case (something that Paul himself never says), then how do you explain the three people Jesus was alleged to have physically resurrected himself or the corpses of the saints who crawled out of their graves in Matthew? If the Corinthians knew about those events, then why did they say dead bodies couldn’t be raised? And where does Paul ever say that Jesus was an exception? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-what-if-james-cameron-did-find-jesus-tomb/393581.md?page=7)