# Christians: What's the lowdown on The Second Coming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518 "2016-06-27T14:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/41 "2016-07-02T20:47:40Z")
The problem with claiming that Revelations is referring to the Roman capture of Jerusalem, or the fall of Rome itself, is that it doesn’t match the prophecy. At no point during the capture of Jerusalem, or fall of Rome, did 1/4 of the world’s population die, or did Christ return for a thousand years, or was there final judgment and annihilation, or the Sun becoming scorching hot to burn people. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/42 "2016-07-03T00:14:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Whatever happens, astronomers haven’t made up their collective minds yet. Then again, the species may have gone to Hell (or Heaven) way before the Sun does… or spread through the stars… who knows? It’s not a matter for theology. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > The Second Coming is not a matter for Catholic theology? :dubious: He seems to have a legitimate question, **Nava**. Personally, I gave up Abrahamic monotheism for Lent one year (with predictable consequences), so I’m not up on current RCC cosmology, but the notion of a human diaspora to the stars just pushes the question down the line. In RCC theology/cosmology, does the Kingdom of Heaven survive the heat death of the universe, and if so, is there an official position on what role Yeshua ben Miriam has to play in the transition, and if THAT is so, what does it look like? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/43 "2016-07-03T00:48:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, the RCC position regarding _Revelation_ is that it addressed the specific persecution of the church in Asia minor at the behest of Domitian, using the particular literary genre that now bears its name, (apocalyptic, from the Greek word for revelation). The apocalyptic genre that developed over the couple of centuries prior to the life of Jesus used extreme imagery to convey a message in a way consistent with psychedelic images from forty years ago or imaginative CGI renderings, today. The message was that the churches should maintain their faith in the face of persecution because God would ultimately triumph, however, there was no specific forecasting of specific events. > > **smiling bandit** ’s summary of Catholic eschatology is accurate. IIRC, there’s speculation that the Beast and/or the Antichrist referred to Nero. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/44 "2016-07-03T20:17:16Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Jesus the Traveler will come … And he can’t be stopped, because he will refuse to create joinder with you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/45 "2016-07-03T20:35:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, there’s speculation that the Beast and/or the Antichrist referred to Nero. People have been speculating on “who” the Beast was ever since the work was written. They are probably all wrong. 666 is simply the Jewish numerological indicator for really bad. 7 indicates perfection, 6, falling short of perfection, is evil. Repeating a number three times goes from bad to worse to worst. Using gematria (associating names with symbolic numbers) to make 666 represent Nero requires that the Greek label [symbol]Kaizar Nerwn[/symbol] (_Kaizar Neron_), be reckoned numerically, using Hebrew (not Greek) numbering while ignoring most, (not all), Greek letters that did not transliterate from Greek to Hebrew. (It can be done, but it seems unlikely and few people who hold the Nero explanation have actually tried it, usually simply accepting the word of someone else that it is true when it is not.) The same or similar problems occur when trying to identify Pope Leo X or Napoleon Bonaparte or Adolf Hitler, among the many persons so “identified” by people who needed for God to condemn them.) There are references in the work that tend toward an identification of Domitian as the revivified Nero. Nero was the first Roman emperor to actively persecute Christians and a legend had sprouted up just after his suicide that he had not died or that he was going to be revived to come back and reign again. Thus some Christians saw Domitian as the revival of Nero. A number of works, (both Christian and Jewish), that were never accepted to the canon of Scripture, declared that Nero was coming back to begin more persecutions, so it was easy for the audience of Revelation to make that connection. However, neither 666 nor the Beast have strong claims for that symbolism in the text, itself. ETA: Antichrist does not appear in the book of _Revelation_. It is a term used by the author of the second two letters of _John_ to refer to any person who opposes the teachings of Jesus, and not to a particular person. The association of “Antichrist” with a particular person, often linked to the Beast or other figures in _Revelation_, began in the second century and was not part of that work. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/46 "2016-07-04T13:38:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The problem with claiming that Revelations is referring to the Roman capture of Jerusalem, or the fall of Rome itself, is that it doesn’t match the prophecy. > > At no point during the capture of Jerusalem, or fall of Rome, did 1/4 of the world’s population die, or did Christ return for a thousand years, or was there final judgment and annihilation, or the Sun becoming scorching hot to burn people. This assumes that it was meant _literally_. Even at the time, there’s no indication this was taken except as extreme metaphor probably written in a moment of religious ecstasy. Further, commentators through the years do not appear to have assumed it was literal in that sense, hence its interpretation and why it was included in the Bible in the first place. The idea that that Revelations is literal and describes the exact sequence of events of the end of the world is a quite modern belief. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/47 "2016-07-05T07:28:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > This assumes that it was meant _literally_. Even at the time, there’s no indication this was taken except as extreme metaphor probably written in a moment of religious ecstasy. Further, commentators through the years do not appear to have assumed it was literal in that sense, hence its interpretation and why it was included in the Bible in the first place. The idea that that Revelations is literal and describes the exact sequence of events of the end of the world is a quite modern belief. So what is it a metaphor of, and what does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/48 "2016-07-05T07:39:39Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > So what is it a metaphor of ? Eating very groovy 'shrooms, mostly. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/49 "2016-07-05T07:54:59Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > So what is it a metaphor of, and what does it mean? There are variety of traditional readings of the work. The [relevant Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Interpretations) gives a useful thumbnail sketch of the readings that emerge from different Christian traditions, with links to separate pages on the principal readings. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/50 "2016-07-05T08:41:00Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > There are variety of traditional readings of the work. The [relevant Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Interpretations) gives a useful thumbnail sketch of the readings that emerge from different Christian traditions, with links to separate pages on the principal readings. Thanks for the link. Revelation was taught to me under the “futurism” interpretation (I’m now all grown up and realized that it’s a bunch of nonsense). I should’ve perhaps quoted Velocity, who was responding to smiling bandit’s preterism (or perhaps historical) interpretation, which leaves little room for a half and half mixture of metaphorical interpretation. And if there are metaphors injected in historical documentation, then what are the meanings of those metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/51 "2016-07-09T07:53:31Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > He seems to have a legitimate question, **Nava**. I never said that he did not and I have already answered, as have several others. The official RCC opinion is that “there will be a second coming but the details are not a matter for theology”. We’ll find out the details whenever it happens. The future of the human race in terms of space expansion and whether we’ll invent FTL or not, is also not a matter for theology: it is a matter for science and engineering. The Kingdom of Heaven is not part of the physical universe, so the question of “what happens to it when the universe ends” is absurd. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Eating very groovy 'shrooms, mostly. Ergot in the bread is guessed to have been involved. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/52 "2016-07-09T11:01:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The Second Coming is not a matter for Catholic theology? :dubious: > Moving on…any other religious takes on TSC? The official answer is “we don’t know” - there, I said it - but if you want a longer answer, I will try to oblige you with some of my own musings. I believe I’ve heard you ask “why doesn’t God just tell us what he’s thinking?” in the past. Well, this is (we think) a case where God has done exactly that, but we’re not capable of fully understanding it - just as children don’t fully understand why they have to do chores. John is basically trying to mind meld with a much greater mind, a mind that doesn’t experience time sequentially the way we do. The result is kind of a jumble of events past, present, and future; exhortations/advice; and artifacts of John’s specific life experiences. We get the gist of the message (something like “Trouble’s coming - but if you’re always prepared to meet your maker, everything will be ok in the end”), but beyond that we’re just making guesses - some better than others: speculating that “the dragon who wants to eat the baby as soon as it’s born is a metaphor for the forces trying to destroy the early church as it was trying to come into being” is probably pretty solid; throwing out specific accusations (Donald Trump is the Antichrist! Hilary Clinton is the whore of Babylon!) is **definitely** going off half-cocked. In the next life (so it is said), we will be transformed somehow so that we can fully appreciate Revelation ("Oh, I get it - the four _horse_men! :smack: ") but until then, the gist is sufficient. One day, I will come face to face with God, and whether I ultimately experience the end of the entire world or only the end of my own little world (that is, my death) makes very little difference in the quality of that meeting. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/53 "2016-07-09T15:31:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The Second Coming is not a matter for Catholic theology? :dubious: > Moving on…any other religious takes on TSC? Some things from ISIS: Dabiq is a city in Syria under ISIS control. “Now that it has taken Dabiq, the Islamic State awaits the arrival of an enemy army there, whose defeat will initiate the countdown to the apocalypse.” “After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphate’s fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesus—the second-most-revered prophet in Islam—will return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.” Above comes from a long article in the Atlantic, very good on understanding the Islamic state. [What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/54 "2016-07-10T05:17:16Z")
In my previous post I mentioned once again that “the details of the End Times are not a matter for theology in the RCC”, but I’ve realized none of us ever said what would consider them a subject matter: mysticism. Theology and mysticism are both religious paths to knowledge, but they’re to each other as articles about pheromones are to love poetry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/55 "2016-07-10T05:57:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > He seems to have a legitimate question, **Nava**. The tenor of his posts and his history here seems to indicate that he’s _not_ serious and he is only mocking the faith. :dubious: In actually this wiki article pretty well covers it. It doesnt look like he did much research if he didnt even check Wikipedia.:dubious: > **[Second Coming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)** > > The Second Coming (sometimes called the Second Advent or the Parousia) is the Christian belief that Jesus Christ will return to Earth after his ascension to Heaven (which is said to have occurred about two thousand years ago). The idea is based on messianic prophecies and is part of most Christian eschatologies. Other faiths have various interpretations of it. > Several different terms are used to refer to the Second Coming of Christ: > In the New Testament, the Greek word ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia, ap... ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/56 "2016-07-10T15:04:13Z")
I’ve been known to ask here questions for which there are wikipedia entries… it’s usually a lot more informative and I trust wikipedia about as far as I can throw it (last time I edited something off it was that some idiot had “upgraded” St Francis Xavier to “lord of Xavier”, a title which never even existed). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/57 "2016-07-10T15:30:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The tenor of his posts and his history here seems to indicate that he’s _not_ serious and he is only mocking the faith. :dubious: > > In actually this wiki article pretty well covers it. It doesnt look like he did much research if he didnt even check Wikipedia.:dubious: > > [Second Coming - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming) There are Wikipedia articles on just about every topic we bring up. Would you rather we all just did Wiki look-ups instead of starting threads on this board? Sometimes what people believe about what their religion teaches, and what they believe other religion teaches, differs greatly from the unofficial Wiki entries available, for various reasons. BTW, your first paragraph seems to smack of “If you don’t already believe, you shouldn’t even ask questions.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/58 "2016-07-10T19:24:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The Second Coming is not a matter for Catholic theology? :dubious: Eight years of Catholic schooling in the 60s. We got more about the evils of Communism than we did about the Second Coming. > [@Shodan](#): > > I am not aware that there is ‘official’ doctrine on the subject in the Lutheran tradition. Near as I can tell it’s “Whatever the Catholics say.” 😉 It’s really not worth fretting about, or wasting budget on lots of theologians when the money could be better spent helping people now. Been reading [The Hour of Our Death: The Classic History of Western Attitudes Toward Death over the Last One Thousand Years](https://www.amazon.com/Hour-Our-Death-Attitudes-Thousand/dp/0394751566) by Philippe Aries, and he charts the evolution of the End Times since Roman times. (He’s flexible about what constitutes “the last one thousand years.”) It keeps changing. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/59 "2016-07-11T02:29:34Z")
I personally think Revelations was written by a sloppy drunk. This passage screams double vision. Chapter 4, where John sees a lot of eyes Here, John gets a glimpse of Heaven and what does he see? Eyes. Eyes everywhere. “The first guy looked like a lion, the next one was a calf, and all those motherfuckers were covered with eyes, inside and out! Oh yes, they all had six wings each and screamed HOLY HOLY HOLY all the time, 24/7!” 6 In front of the throne was something that resembled a sea of glass like crystal. In the center and around the throne, there were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back. 7 The first creature resembled a lion, the second was like a calf, the third had a face like that of a human being, and the fourth looked like an eagle in flight. 8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.” ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/60 "2016-07-11T02:33:26Z")
You know how some drunks keep repeating a figure over and over while arguing? 5 MONTHS! I SAID 5 MONTHS! Chapter 9, where John describes weird bugs Here, John describes mutant insects that come out of the earth. He says they’re like scorpions, then goes off on a tangent describing how they get to sting people that don’t have the sign of God on their foreheads, but only for five months, and also to leave the plants alone. Then he goes back to describing the bugs, and says they’re more like horses with people faces and lion teeth. They’ve got big stingers, but they only get to use them for five months. Why? BECAUSE I SAID FIVE MONTHS! GET USED TO IT! > [@](#): > > 1 Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. It was given the key for the passage to the abyss. > 2 It opened the passage to the abyss,a and smoke came up out of the passage like smoke from a huge furnace. The sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the passage. > 3 Locusts came out of the smoke onto the land, and they were given the same power as scorpions of the earth. > 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or any tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. > 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torment them for five months; the torment they inflicted was like that of a scorpion when it stings a person. > 6 During that time these people will seek death but will not find it, and they will long to die but death will escape them. > 7 The appearance of the locusts was like that of horses ready for battle. On their heads they wore what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, > 8 and they had hair like women’s hair. Their teeth were like lions’ teeth, > 9 and they had chests like iron breastplates. The sound of their wings was like the sound of many horse-drawn chariots racing into battle. > 10 They had tails like scorpions, with stingers; with their tails they had power to harm people for five months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518.md?page=4)