# Christians: What's the lowdown on The Second Coming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518 "2016-06-27T14:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/81 "2016-07-13T16:50:38Z")
So there’s this cat named Jesus, see? And he came to Earth, rocked the land o’ Caanan pretty good, said some good things and then checked out for a while. Said he’d be back soon. Dude ain’t been back, ain’t been seen, but some of them groupies been jonesing for him pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/82 "2016-07-13T18:51:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It won’t work - Jesus has a Carbonite subscription. aka Jesus saves. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/83 "2016-07-14T11:24:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The problem with claiming that Revelations is referring to the Roman capture of Jerusalem, or the fall of Rome itself, is that it doesn’t match the prophecy. > > At no point during the capture of Jerusalem, or fall of Rome, did 1/4 of the world’s population die, or did Christ return for a thousand years, or was there final judgment and annihilation, or the Sun becoming scorching hot to burn people. I’d like to break this objection down, if I may… **THERE WAS NO FINAL JUDGMENT** Well, of course, final judgment hasn’t happened yet; final judgment is expected to happen at the end of time. (That’s why they call it final judgment. 😉 ) **THE SUN WASN’T SCORCHING HOT, AND A QUARTER OF THE WORLD DIDN’T DIE** I’ve never been to Jerusalem, and I don’t know what the weather was like when the Romans seized it; but I’m given to understand that midday typically gets pretty hot. I don’t think people fighting in the desert heat (and fighting in those days involved significantly more exertion than pulling a trigger) would have a problem describing the sun in that way. As for casualties, an eyewitness ([Flavius Josephus](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/josephussack.html) - also the source for the longer quote below) estimates that “the number of those that perished during the whole siege [was] eleven hundred thousand [most of whom] were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army.” That might not sound like much to you; but you’re probably comparing it with several billion, and you probably think nothing of zipping from metropolis to metropolis. Try to imagine growing up in first century Jerusalem. Traveling is a big deal; most people spend their entire lives within a few miles of where they were born. City populations are measured in thousands, maybe tens of thousands. Now imagine something like three hundred Sept 11th’s (1.1 million is approximately equal to 300 times 3K): > [@](#): > > But when [the Roman soldiers] went in numbers into the lanes of the city, with their swords drawn, they slew those whom they overtook, without mercy, and set fire to the houses wither the Jews were fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; (405) and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is of such as died by the famine; they then stood in a horror at this sight, and went out without touching anything. (406) But although they had this commiseration for such as were destroyed in that manner, yet had they not the same for those that were still alive, but they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many of the houses was quenched with these men’s blood. It certainly would have _felt_ like half the world had been wiped out, and poetry is all about connecting on an emotional level. **CHRIST DID NOT RETURN FOR A THOUSAND YEARS** Christian music and literature often speak of Christ the King, and I think you’d be hard-pressed to name any king, queen, president, etc. who has had as much influence on world politics as Jesus. It might not be a formal monarchy, but it’s pretty impressive for someone who was publicly executed two thousand years ago. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/84 "2016-07-14T15:02:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t believe those were talking about the Second Coming as such, but rather other events which did in fact occur before the end of the first century. > > Your mileage may vary. Yes, many believe specifically those passages refer to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/85 "2016-07-14T15:07:19Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Yes, many believe specifically those passages refer to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Do you think that those who heard his words thought he was referring to the future destruction of the temple? If _I_ heard what was said in those passages, would I be a total ignoramus to believe he was talking about his own big return? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/86 "2016-07-14T18:22:20Z")
The Second coming will be good news for all, believers and non-believers alike. For the believers, it represents Jesus keeping his promise to return to them and begin his millennial reign. For the non-believers, they are rewarded with the knowing that their coffee will never again get cold. The Second Coming is Jesus keeping his promise, and his followers realizing that all the other promises he’s made are forthcoming. That’s the simple “lowdown.” ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/87 "2016-07-14T18:37:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The Second coming will be good news for all, believers and non-believers alike. Yeah. Go to Heaven for the climate; to Hell for the company. (Mark Twain) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/88 "2016-07-14T18:59:21Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The Second coming will be good news for all, believers and non-believers alike. > > For the believers, it represents Jesus keeping his promise to return to them and begin his millennial reign. > For the non-believers, they are rewarded with the knowing that their coffee will never again get cold. > > The Second Coming is Jesus keeping his promise, and his followers realizing that all the other promises he’s made are forthcoming. That’s the simple “lowdown.” In Harlan Ellison’s story collection _Dangerous Visions_ Damon Knight contributed a story titled “Shall The Dust Praise Thee?” that dealt with just this subject-what happens if you don’t keep your promises in a timely manner. After looking in vain for his multitudes to bring to his fold, the story ends with > [@](#): > > He commanded again, “Speak!” And the rocks rose up once more, to lay bare a chamber that was deeper still. And in silence, God and the angels stood in a circle around the pit, and leaned down to see what shapes glittered there. > > In the wall of that lowest chamber, someone had chiseled a row of letters. And when the machine in that chamber had been destroyed, the fiery metal had sprayed out and filled the letters in the wall, so that they gleamed now like silver in the darkness. > > And God read the words. > > “We were here. Where were You?” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/89 "2016-07-15T00:08:09Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Let’s just say that I was Rapturist & now I’m a mix of Preterist w/Historic PreMillenialism. My friend, I always enjoy how you drag me out of my extremely comfortable comfort zone, which usually involves nostalgia for burning your sort at the stake, by providing alternate takes to distract me. 😃 > [@Doubticus](#): > > aka Jesus saves. Moses invests! ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/90 "2016-07-15T00:34:11Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > As for casualties, an eyewitness ([Flavius Josephus](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/josephussack.html) - also the source for the longer quote below) estimates that “the number of those that perished during the whole siege [was] eleven hundred thousand [most of whom] were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army.” That might not sound like much to you; but you’re probably comparing it with several billion, and you probably think nothing of zipping from metropolis to metropolis. Actually, [that figure was probably exaggerated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)), since it exceeds the entire population of Palestine at the time, half of which were Jews. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/91 "2016-07-18T10:34:11Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Actually, [that figure was probably exaggerated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)), since it exceeds the entire population of Palestine at the time, half of which were Jews. Rats! I knew that number was crazy big, but I’m not a real historian and he’s the one who was there. I’ve since looked at several web pages that talk about the siege of Jerusalem; most of them were critical of Josephus’s estimate, but none was willing to go out on a limb with their own estimate. Anyway, a major city was pretty much wiped out, and cities were kind of a big deal. Travel was more difficult without cars or airplanes; a pilgrimage to Jerusalem would have been a substantial undertaking - something like going to Disneyland nowadays. Most people’s lives consisted primarily of the city where they were born (or a farm and maybe the city they could walk to in a day). A city’s worth of people would be mind-bogglingly huge, and Jerusalem wasn’t just any city either: it was the site of God’s Temple - the Chosen City, if you will. So I stand by my point: the siege of Jerusalem was psychologically devastating in a way that’s difficult for modern readers to appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/92 "2016-07-18T11:26:19Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > So I stand by my point: the siege of Jerusalem was psychologically devastating in a way that’s difficult for modern readers to appreciate. 9-11, stretched. ---
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/93 "2016-07-21T12:01:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > People have been speculating on “who” the Beast was ever since the work was written. They are probably all wrong. > > 666 is simply the Jewish numerological indicator for really bad. 7 indicates perfection, 6, falling short of perfection, is evil. Repeating a number three times goes from bad to worse to worst. Using gematria (associating names with symbolic numbers) to make 666 represent Nero requires that the Greek label [symbol]Kaizar Nerwn[/symbol] (_Kaizar Neron_), be reckoned numerically, using Hebrew (not Greek) numbering while ignoring most, (not all), Greek letters that did not transliterate from Greek to Hebrew. (It can be done, but it seems unlikely and few people who hold the Nero explanation have actually tried it, usually simply accepting the word of someone else that it is true when it is not.) The same or similar problems occur when trying to identify Pope Leo X or Napoleon Bonaparte or Adolf Hitler, among the many persons so “identified” by people who needed for God to condemn them.) > > There are references in the work that tend toward an identification of Domitian as the revivified Nero. Nero was the first Roman emperor to actively persecute Christians and a legend had sprouted up just after his suicide that he had not died or that he was going to be revived to come back and reign again. Thus some Christians saw Domitian as the revival of Nero. A number of works, (both Christian and Jewish), that were never accepted to the canon of Scripture, declared that Nero was coming back to begin more persecutions, so it was easy for the audience of Revelation to make that connection. However, neither 666 nor the Beast have strong claims for that symbolism in the text, itself. > > ETA: Antichrist does not appear in the book of _Revelation_. It is a term used by the author of the second two letters of _John_ to refer to any person who opposes the teachings of Jesus, and not to a particular person. The association of “Antichrist” with a particular person, often linked to the Beast or other figures in _Revelation_, began in the second century and was not part of that work. 6 represents one from, perfection it’s a human number, no man can be 7 perfection, that’s only for God. 6 repeated 3 times over is just a confirmation of it’s intent. So it’s a rejection of God and mans works that is at the forefront in the lives of the people, Communism is just as such or slavery to the madness of man. People will become slaves to a system of corruption and Political Correctness is such a system that the Nazis used and the Communist use to brainwash and control the people. The leadership of the Political Correct mob plays games with people leading them up the garden path and to make little leaders out of them, who push others around and are very militant types that hate any other view point that’s not of there own and they try to persuade that they are non aggressive and a people of peace and understanding. Much like a religion that claims it’s of peace that kills others if you are not one of them or they chop your head off and that’s the same thing with Political Correctness when it’s idolised as it is building up it’s strength to dominate all people under the works of man. It’s a people who want the kingdom but don’t want God in it, such will fail and only bring misery, as dictatorship always does. There are so called Christian groups who wish to promote or bring in the so called 2ed coming they say, as they want to create war and destruction so as to bring there Satanic man they will call God, thing is with such morons is they believe they will be raptured up and will not go through the hell fire they caused and such believe that the ends justify the means. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/94 "2016-07-23T16:19:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think that those who heard his words thought he was referring to the future destruction of the temple? If _I_ heard what was said in those passages, would I be a total ignoramus to believe he was talking about his own big return? Early Christians, like in the first century, generally interpreted the scriptural references to the second coming to imply that Jesus was returning within a relatively short period of time. Their lifetimes even if they lived long enough. When this didn’t happen interpretations began to shift. By the time of the Nicene Creed in 325 Christendom essentially had abandoned the idea of any particular timeline. The Nicene Creed essentially acknowledges Christ is coming back, but it will be sudden and with little warning. Further, early post-Nicene theologians up through the majority of Catholic and Orthodox thinkers to the present time essentially hold that Christ isn’t coming back to establish an earthly Kingdom (no 1,000 years of his rule on Earth as a literal kingdom), but instead the second coming is when Christ will establish “New Jerusalem” when all the dead will be raised and judged. Essentially an end will have come to the division of the Church in heaven and the Church on Earth, and they will be one and the same. I was raised Catholic by the way (atheist since my late teenage years), and the relative focus on the second coming at least in my diocese where I grew up just wasn’t very high. I think a lot of the focus on this comes from Protestantism. When you had that break away from a centralized church, and the acceptance of people on the congregational (or even personal) level promulgating their beliefs a lot of ideas that had largely been settled for a thousand years came back to the forefront. After the Protestant reformation there were lots of Protestant sects that focused heavily on the passages in Revelation and interpreted the Second Coming with more of a focus on a belief that there will be a long period of physical turmoil, reign of Christ on earth and etc. The concept of the rapture as it’s expressed in pop culture or in fundamentalist Christian churches is largely an invention of the 19th century, although there were heretical sects throughout Christian history that sometimes expressed similar views and also scattered writings of theologians (even some Catholic priests) that laid the foundation for some of these views… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/95 "2016-07-23T21:31:06Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Actually, [that figure was probably exaggerated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)), since it exceeds the entire population of Palestine at the time, half of which were Jews. According to who? Estimates vary. Records from that time are nearly non-existent- except Josephus. ---
**Author:** ![i\_am\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@i\_am\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/i_am_1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/96 "2016-07-29T13:25:04Z")
Swedenborg wrote a series of books on the meaning of Revelation. They can be downloaded for free if you’re interested.: > **[Apocalypse Explained Vol. 1: Redesigned Standard Edition - Swedenborg Foundation](https://swedenborg.com/product/apocalypse-explained-vol-1-redesigned-standard-edition/)** > > Revelation 1-4 By Emanuel Swedenborg Translated by John Whitehead Swedenborg’s verse-by-verse exposition of the book of Revelation (published posthumously). Volume 1 covers Revelation 1-4. Hardcover or PDF, 684 pages Buy in Print Hardcover $59.95 Get... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/97 "2016-07-29T14:17:00Z")
> [@i\_am](#): > > Swedenborg wrote a series of books on the meaning of Revelation. They can be downloaded for free if you’re interested.: > > [http://www.swedenborg.com/product/apocalypse-explained-vol-1-redesigned-standard-edition/](http://www.swedenborg.com/product/apocalypse-explained-vol-1-redesigned-standard-edition/) Why don’t you give us a brief run-down on his ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/98 "2016-07-29T14:29:40Z")
[Here is an overview on Mr. Swedenborg.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg) I think this > [@](#): > > Swedenborg had a prolific career as an inventor and scientist. In 1741, at age 53, he entered into a spiritual phase in which he began to experience dreams and visions, beginning on Easter weekend of 6 April 1744. This culminated in a ‘spiritual awakening’, in which he received revelation that he was appointed by the Lord to write The Heavenly Doctrine to reform Christianity. According to The Heavenly Doctrine the Lord had opened Swedenborg’s spiritual eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell and talk with angels, demons and other spirits; and the Last Judgment had already occurred, in 1757. pretty much tells me all I need to know about his interpretations of the Book of Revelation. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/99 "2016-07-29T17:56:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think that those who heard his words thought he was referring to the future destruction of the temple? No (though he did once mention about tearing down the temple and raising it up in 3 days… albeit that’s incredible poetic to begin with and refers more to His own resurrection, but you know…). However, what **truthseeker3** and **Nava** said applies here, I think about how devastating it would be to have the Temple destroyed. I think there are quite a number of modern scholars tend to look at the most of Revelation as referring to that exact thing (and then it seems to switch in the last few chapters to the hope of the final coming). ---
**Author:** ![DagNation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@DagNation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DagNation)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518/100 "2016-07-31T03:18:28Z")
I am an Atheist, but my hope for the end times (in case I am wrong) is that all the good Christians\* will be raptured away, including their physical bodies ascending to heaven. Then all the bad, pretend “Christians” will die and go to heck or whatever, leaving behind the dead bodies. That way the rest of us will know that “preacher fancy-shirt” was a big fake, and that the aunt who always gave a donation in your name to a charity for Christmas was really a nice lady who did all the good she could. Then, my friends and I will go take possession of one of the nice big church compounds that have lots of places for crafting and meetings and big musical art events! Anyone who comes by saying it belongs to them will obviously be a liar or were not good enough for God to take them… I give this outcome about the same chance as me winning the lottery, and it is kinda a fun fantasy in the same way. I almost never buy lottery tickets…like $40 in my whole life, so I’m not counting on either one. \*and other faithful people… at least in the Abrahamic traditions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-whats-the-lowdown-on-the-second-coming/758518.md?page=6)